Next manager

Maybe too long in the tooth now but love to see Gian Piero Gasperini from Atalanta have a go at Old Trafford, his team always play attacking football and they enjoy bloodying the noses of the big boys, all done on a budget.

It would be Tommy Doc football again, if they score 4 we'll just have to score 5. Happy dayz.
 
I do not know but ETH has not been able to implement anything in the way Ajax played or plays. I am sure that our fans will remember Casemiro dropping into the central defence role many times last season. That is the way he is used to play but now he does not do that. I have seen Ajax play since I was a kid and they play the same style from their academy to the senior team. You need players who can control the ball. Cruijff used to say the first tough is the most important. It controls the tempo. If you have the ball the other team cannot score and it is about organization and more importantly positioning.
I saw their match against Bodo Glint in Europe last Thursday. They were terrible. None of their players would get into even the United squad as individual players. But they played the same way they always play. Move into space and pass into the lanes and move the ball instead of trying to run with it. They defended as a team too. Not letting the other team run into space.
ETH has coached with Pep. Pep played in the Barca team that Cruijff coached and played the same way. Why cannot ETH get us to play like that? Either the players are unable to play or they are not listening to him.
This where I have an issue with Dan Ashworth coming as a DOF. We need someone like Ralf who understands football and tell the Head Coach what kind of system United needs to play. And then get the players who fits that system.
 
This sides biggest problem isn’t with the ball it’s without it.

They are so easy to play through. Fulham cut through us easily yesterday just like every team has done this season. The number of shots our keeper faces is similar to the number of shots the keepers for the bottom 3 face.

There was no pressure on their defenders yesterday in possession that is where we really miss Hojlund he sets the tempo for that and stops them passing out easily.

Teams can take out our entire forward/midfield lines with 1 pass, it’s embarrassing. Teams counter on us from our own corners time and time again because we don’t control the space around the box and win the second ball or foul.

Runners flood through midfield with no one matching their run, the lack of energy and power in that midfield is a huge problem.

This is a very poorly organised team with fantastic individuals that get us out of trouble.
 
For those who would like to see Ten Hag replaced, who would you like to be his successor?
 
Sideshow Bob said:
For those who would like to see Ten Hag replaced, who would you like to be his successor?
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Klopp but I assume you were looking for more realistic candidates. :p

I don’t watch enough european football to make a massive list of the top up and comers.

In terms of the Prem I like what the guy at Bournemouth is doing but can he scale that up to a club like Utd?

I like this new version of Emery the more gung ho approach we are seeing at Villa rather than the reactive stuff we saw in Spain.

I still hope he can turn this around but it’s really bad at the moment and whoever the manager is that squad needs a total overhaul.
 
jsp said:
Klopp but I assume you were looking for more realistic candidates. :p

I don’t watch enough european football to make a massive list of the top up and comers.

In terms of the Prem I like what the guy at Bournemouth is doing but can he scale that up to a club like Utd?

I like this new version of Emery the more gung ho approach we are seeing at Villa rather than the reactive stuff we saw in Spain.

I still hope he can turn this around but it’s really bad at the moment and whoever the manager is that squad needs a total overhaul.
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This is what bothers me. I have seen Ajax from the 70s until now and ETH was a successful manager at Ajax. They simply do not play the same way close to what United is playing. It is the complete opposite.
I wonder why ETH cannot get us to play the same way? Could he be handicapped by the players he has? I know he got Antony and Martinez too. But the 2 of the most high profile players do not fit the profile of the way Ajax plays or possession based football. Could he be trying to fit in square pegs into a round hole? There is simply no movement off the ball. This is one of the reasons why our CBs are looking for a pass and slowing it down. Simply no movement.
We do not play a high line anymore so there is no point in pressing by Bruno in the opponents box.
I think Nagelsmann might be a better fit but at this time half a dozen PL managers get their teams to play better football than ETH.
 
justintime said:
This is what bothers me. I have seen Ajax from the 70s until now and ETH was a successful manager at Ajax. They simply do not play the same way close to what United is playing. It is the complete opposite.
I wonder why ETH cannot get us to play the same way? Could he be handicapped by the players he has? I know he got Antony and Martinez too. But the 2 of the most high profile players do not fit the profile of the way Ajax plays or possession based football. Could he be trying to fit in square pegs into a round hole? There is simply no movement off the ball. This is one of the reasons why our CBs are looking for a pass and slowing it down. Simply no movement.
We do not play a high line anymore so there is no point in pressing by Bruno in the opponents box.
I think Nagelsmann might be a better fit but at this time half a dozen PL managers get their teams to play better football than ETH.
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If you watched ETH at Ajax you would know he did not play the Ajax way and it almost cost him his job early on but things suddenly clicked and he built the best side they‘d had in almost 20 years. He took the pressing methods he’d learnt in Germany into Ajax playing 4-2-3-1 rather than 4-3-3.

Ten Hag was not schooled in Ajax.

Whatever is going on ETH or the next guy they have got to get into a better shape both with and without the ball.
 
jsp said:
If you watched ETH at Ajax you would know he did not play the Ajax way and it almost cost him his job early on but things suddenly clicked and he built the best side they‘d had in almost 20 years. He took the pressing methods he’d learnt in Germany into Ajax playing 4-2-3-1 rather than 4-3-3.

Ten Hag was not schooled in Ajax.

Whatever is going on ETH or the next guy they have got to get into a better shape both with and without the ball.
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Ten Hag is not schooled in Ajax but no one in Ajax knows any other way to play and they do not play any other way. One of the reasons why they lost the match against Spurs because of this. Overmars was the DOF.
By the way ETH was under Pep at Bayern before that and Pep plays the same way with a bit of tweaking here and there because it Johan Cruijff was who introduced it at Ajax and then later at Barcelona including La Masia. Neither Rinus Michels nor did Stefan Kovac introduce it. They played a 433 those days.
 
jsp said:
I don’t watch enough european football to make a massive list of the top up and comers.
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jsp said:
If you watched ETH at Ajax you would know he did not play the Ajax way and it almost cost him his job early on but things suddenly clicked and he built the best side they‘d had in almost 20 years. He took the pressing methods he’d learnt in Germany into Ajax playing 4-2-3-1 rather than 4-3-3.
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Not sure these two sentences make sense

Did you watch him at Ajax, or have you read that?
 
Mr C said:
Not sure these two sentences make sense

Did you watch him at Ajax, or have you read that?
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Is this for me? If so Yes, I have seen Ajax play since Cruijff was a player. As for learning pressing from Bayern comment JSP, I think JSP has not seen Ajax in the 70s. It was Johan Neeskens who started it and they press like wolves in a pack and push up everyone to the halfway line. Sure, they had bad coaches and who sometimes do not play like they used to play but they do not last long. ETH would have been sacked if he did not play the way Ajax plays.
Incidentally we had an ex Ajax player who won the European Cup with them in Arnold Muhren playing for us under Big Ron and winning and scoring the FA Cup. Bryan Robson could have taken the penalty at 3-0 and scored his hat trick in an FA Cup Final but gave it to Muhren who was the regular penalty taker. These days I do not think it was going to happen.
 
Mr C said:
Not sure these two sentences make sense

Did you watch him at Ajax, or have you read that?
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Well they do, as currently I don’t watch a lot of football outside of Utd my life has changed after having a kid so I’m well off what is going on in Europe these days. Other than the obvious names I couldn’t tell you many outside shots who are making a name for themselves under the radar.

Probably saw 2 or 3 games from ETH at Ajax but I didn’t claim to be an expert and some of what I said is from reading up on him a bit when he took over Utd.
 
justintime said:
Ten Hag is not schooled in Ajax but no one in Ajax knows any other way to play and they do not play any other way. One of the reasons why they lost the match against Spurs because of this. Overmars was the DOF.
By the way ETH was under Pep at Bayern before that and Pep plays the same way with a bit of tweaking here and there because it Johan Cruijff was who introduced it at Ajax and then later at Barcelona including La Masia. Neither Rinus Michels nor did Stefan Kovac introduce it. They played a 433 those days.
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Exactly so when he challenged it with his methods everyone was going nuts but when they saw results they came round to it and working with Overmars they built a couple of decent sides.

Not exactly he was the Bayern B team coach while Pep was there he did not work under Pep or alongside him he was responsibly for a different team under direction of their sporting director.
 
jsp said:
This sides biggest problem isn’t with the ball it’s without it.

They are so easy to play through. Fulham cut through us easily yesterday just like every team has done this season. The number of shots our keeper faces is similar to the number of shots the keepers for the bottom 3 face.

There was no pressure on their defenders yesterday in possession that is where we really miss Hojlund he sets the tempo for that and stops them passing out easily.

Teams can take out our entire forward/midfield lines with 1 pass, it’s embarrassing. Teams counter on us from our own corners time and time again because we don’t control the space around the box and win the second ball or foul.

Runners flood through midfield with no one matching their run, the lack of energy and power in that midfield is a huge problem.

This is a very poorly organised team with fantastic individuals that get us out of trouble.
Click to expand...
The whole squad lacks any fight or urgency. We had two opportunities to fight and try to clear the ball for their first goal yet all our players remained static. They either do not care or are not good enough to care.
 
jsp said:
Exactly so when he challenged it with his methods everyone was going nuts but when they saw results they came round to it and working with Overmars they built a couple of decent sides.

Not exactly he was the Bayern B team coach while Pep was there he did not work under Pep or alongside him he was responsibly for a different team under direction of their sporting director.
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You do not seem to understand how Ajax plays or played. There was nothing different the way Ajax played under ETH or their more illustrious coaches. Even now they try to play the same way. Yes they are fairly unsuccessful now and had a very hard time even against Bodo Glimt but anyone who knows Ajax would see that they play the same way.
By the way at Bayern they also play the same way in the academy as the first team and as the same at Ajax academy. The same at Barcelona as well.
 
justintime said:
You do not seem to understand how Ajax plays or played. There was nothing different the way Ajax played under ETH or their more illustrious coaches. Even now they try to play the same way. Yes they are fairly unsuccessful now and had a very hard time even against Bodo Glimt but anyone who knows Ajax would see that they play the same way.
By the way at Bayern they also play the same way in the academy as the first team and as the same at Ajax academy. The same at Barcelona as well.
Click to expand...

I am not an expert in Ajax I will hold my hands up but I know a little bit and I know from what I've seen and read they were not happy with his 4-2-3-1 system as opposed to the 4-3-3 system.

I'm not saying it was radically different to what they've always done they're the biggest and richest team in the country so they're going to be a dominant side in most games if they've built their squad well which they did in that period. They also had a crop of fantastic young players come through together which helps.

I'm well aware of how Bayern setup their academy but Pep in his time there did not change the academy he was first team focused in his 3 years in charge he was not their long enough to influence and change the way the academy sides played.
 
Anyway until this new regime is in place and they decide the way they want Utd to play going forward there will not be a new manager as that new manager will need to fit into that style.

This summer sadly it feels like we are setting the clock back to 0 again and starting from scratch.
 
But you said you don't watch enough Europen football to have a view on managers, but you seem to be an expert on ETH at Ajax.
 
Mr C said:
But you said you don't watch enough Europen football to have a view on managers, but you seem to be an expert on ETH at Ajax.
Click to expand...

Where have I said I'm an expert on Ajax? Literally said I'm not 2 minutes ago.

I've seen bits for myself, I've read bits and heard stuff from podcasts from European football reporters who watched his sides. Mostly very complimentary of what he did but all say he had a tough start because he was not sticking to the strict Ajax traditions but he won them over with results.

Ajax is a very hard club to coach because of that history and tradition there are plenty of former managers/players waiting to shoot you down.
 
jsp said:
If you watched ETH at Ajax you would know he did not play the Ajax way and it almost cost him his job early on but things suddenly clicked and he built the best side they‘d had in almost 20 years. He took the pressing methods he’d learnt in Germany into Ajax playing 4-2-3-1 rather than 4-3-3.
Click to expand...

jsp said:
Where have I said I'm an expert on Ajax? Literally said I'm not 2 minutes ago.
Click to expand...


This implies you watched Ajax enough to form an argument on his system and also watched enough of Ajax to compare that to their history.

If not, you should have said, from what I have read. Because reading about something is not the same as watching something.

Justintime sounds like hes actually watched them play enough
 
Mr C said:
This implies you watched Ajax enough to form an argument on his system and also watched enough of Ajax to compare that to their history.

If not, you should have said, from what I have read. Because reading about something is not the same as watching something.

Justintime sounds like hes actually watched them play enough
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I'll admit I could have worded it a bit better but come on it's forum this isn't university, do you want me to put all my sources into a post for reference?

He's come back at me on it himself and that's fine I'll bow to his far greater knowledge on that subject than mine and I'm interested to hear what he has to say. He seems to know a lot about Ajax in the 70's and he watched them play in Europe the other night. I don't know how often he watched the ETH Ajax side play, maybe I'll ask him or you could ask him?

You've jumped on two separate posts about two different points and don't seem to be willing to let it go.

There's all these new execs coming in until they decide what they want Utd to look like in 2-3 years time once all this transition is sorted we haven't got a clue where they're going to look for a new manager.
 
jsp said:
I'll admit I could have worded it a bit better but come on it's forum this isn't university, do you want me to put all my sources into a post for reference?

He's come back at me on it himself and that's fine I'll bow to his far greater knowledge on that subject than mine and I'm interested to hear what he has to say. He seems to know a lot about Ajax in the 70's and he watched them play in Europe the other night. I don't know how often he watched the ETH Ajax side play, maybe I'll ask him or you could ask him?

You've jumped on two separate posts about two different points and don't seem to be willing to let it go.

There's all these new execs coming in until they decide what they want Utd to look like in 2-3 years time once all this transition is sorted we haven't got a clue where they're going to look for a new manager.
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Neither have I got a clue as to where they are going to look for one and what style of football. But it would be wise of them not to listen to any ex United player for once.
One of the main reasons why City is so good is Begiristain. Would you have Dan Ashworth or Begiristain as your DOF? One who played under Cruijff in The Dream Team and who understand football and the way to play total football and who was the DOF at Barcelona or someone who has never played or coached at any decent level?
This why it is such a tragic mistake to let go of Ralf as a consultant and they should have appointed him as the DOF even now.
 
justintime said:
Neither have I got a clue as to where they are going to look for one and what style of football. But it would be wise of them not to listen to any ex United player for once.
One of the main reasons why City is so good is Begiristain. Would you have Dan Ashworth or Begiristain as your DOF? One who played under Cruijff in The Dream Team and who understand football and the way to play total football and who was the DOF at Barcelona or someone who has never played or coached at any decent level?
This why it is such a tragic mistake to let go of Ralf as a consultant and they should have appointed him as the DOF even now.
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Bergiristain made sense because he pretty much guaranteed Pep’s arrival and he is the best manager of his generation. So yeah if you can get him you’d be crazy not to go for it. You do need an almost unlimited budget though for it to be a sure thing and an off the books slush fund (allegedly). Paying top money for the best manager, coaches and players is hardly rocket science at the end of the day. The true testament of how good he is as a director of football is does he stick around and carry on that success when Pep leaves.

My guess with Ashworth is they’re looking at him to do what Rangnick called for and build from the top down. I don’t think he’s going to set the style of the team I think he’s going to be responsible for driving culture change through every part of the club to put success first. Rangnick was probably the right man given the wrong job he should have been the person that got the job Murtough ended up with but the board at the time kept things in house as I don’t think they were ever driven by success on the pitch.

The style/culture will be set from INEOS and I don’t think it’s going to be a rigid system but more an expectation that you must challenge for the title playing attacking football. Utd as a club cannot see themselves as a plucky underdog against anyone. We are the dominant force and it’s time we started acting like the big dog again. We don’t just want to do everything as well as City are doing it right now we want to do it better and put them back in our shadow.

Football evolves as the rules change. Total Football as a concept existed before the back pass rule, before VAR, before tackling from behind was banned, before players played 50 plus games a season plus internationals and ran 10km each every game. I’m sure there’s some core principles that stand the test of time but the idea has to evolve. Utd’s vision has to be of something that can be better than Total Football or Pep’s version of it.
 
jsp said:
Bergiristain made sense because he pretty much guaranteed Pep’s arrival and he is the best manager of his generation. So yeah if you can get him you’d be crazy not to go for it. You do need an almost unlimited budget though for it to be a sure thing and an off the books slush fund (allegedly). Paying top money for the best manager, coaches and players is hardly rocket science at the end of the day. The true testament of how good he is as a director of football is does he stick around and carry on that success when Pep leaves.

My guess with Ashworth is they’re looking at him to do what Rangnick called for and build from the top down. I don’t think he’s going to set the style of the team I think he’s going to be responsible for driving culture change through every part of the club to put success first. Rangnick was probably the right man given the wrong job he should have been the person that got the job Murtough ended up with but the board at the time kept things in house as I don’t think they were ever driven by success on the pitch.

The style/culture will be set from INEOS and I don’t think it’s going to be a rigid system but more an expectation that you must challenge for the title playing attacking football. Utd as a club cannot see themselves as a plucky underdog against anyone. We are the dominant force and it’s time we started acting like the big dog again. We don’t just want to do everything as well as City are doing it right now we want to do it better and put them back in our shadow.

Football evolves as the rules change. Total Football as a concept existed before the back pass rule, before VAR, before tackling from behind was banned, before players played 50 plus games a season plus internationals and ran 10km each every game. I’m sure there’s some core principles that stand the test of time but the idea has to evolve. Utd’s vision has to be of something that can be better than Total Football or Pep’s version of it.
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It is very easy to say attack and be attractive. All fans would say that and I do not think any fan would say play dour football and lose. BUT having someone who understands football at the top level is critical. Why do clubs like Barca and Bayern have footballing people at the top? Because they understand what kind of coaches they need and what kind of players would fit into their systems. And what kind of football they need to play starting at academy level. ETH was successful because of the backroom people at Ajax. I very well remember and I think it was Sky that after the first match at Spurs the British commentators thought that Ajax would defend and Gullit started laughing and they asked him why and he said No. Ajax would not change their style of play and defend. He was right. They lost playing their style. They lost against us too in the EL because Jose knew that they would play the same and negated it by getting the ball onto the chest of Fellaini. Sure man to man they did not have the individual quality of the players Spurs had or we had. But this is United and we should be able to get the top players with a top manager as they all want to win titles just like RVP came to United to win.

If ETH had been prudent, he would have kept DeGea and played a counter attacking football until he got the players who can play the way he wants to play. I do accept that he has been badly handicapped by his forward line but and I have said in other forums too when LVG came to United the only player he needs was a playmaker and he tried to shoehorn Rooney into this and he failed miserably. They all had or have players with the first touch who can control the tempo of the game. I have not watched Chelsea enough to know how good or bad Mason Mount is but Bruno is not the player who can control the tempo of a game and without that we will not win the PL.
 
justintime said:
It is very easy to say attack and be attractive. All fans would say that and I do not think any fan would say play dour football and lose. BUT having someone who understands football at the top level is critical. Why do clubs like Barca and Bayern have footballing people at the top? Because they understand what kind of coaches they need and what kind of players would fit into their systems. And what kind of football they need to play starting at academy level. ETH was successful because of the backroom people at Ajax. I very well remember and I think it was Sky that after the first match at Spurs the British commentators thought that Ajax would defend and Gullit started laughing and they asked him why and he said No. Ajax would not change their style of play and defend. He was right. They lost playing their style. They lost against us too in the EL because Jose knew that they would play the same and negated it by getting the ball onto the chest of Fellaini. Sure man to man they did not have the individual quality of the players Spurs had or we had. But this is United and we should be able to get the top players with a top manager as they all want to win titles just like RVP came to United to win.

If ETH had been prudent, he would have kept DeGea and played a counter attacking football until he got the players who can play the way he wants to play. I do accept that he has been badly handicapped by his forward line but and I have said in other forums too when LVG came to United the only player he needs was a playmaker and he tried to shoehorn Rooney into this and he failed miserably. They all had or have players with the first touch who can control the tempo of the game. I have not watched Chelsea enough to know how good or bad Mason Mount is but Bruno is not the player who can control the tempo of a game and without that we will not win the PL.
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I don’t think you can say ETH was only successful because of his backroom staff you have to give him some credit. Yes Overmars helped select the players but it was still ETH who organised them into a very good side. Both were helped by a club decision to allow some money to be spent on some older players on big wages like Blind, Tadic or Haller to help the youngsters in the squad develop rather than just being all about youth.

His big problem right now isn’t counter attack or the keeper it’s the absolute chasm between his defence and attack with and without the ball. It’s been there all season and it gives every team we play a huge space to exploit if they can beat the press and without Hojlund its easy for even bang average defenders to slip 1 pass through our entire team.
 
jsp said:
I don’t think you can say ETH was only successful because of his backroom staff you have to give him some credit. Yes Overmars helped select the players but it was still ETH who organised them into a very good side. Both were helped by a club decision to allow some money to be spent on some older players on big wages like Blind, Tadic or Haller to help the youngsters in the squad develop rather than just being all about youth.

His big problem right now isn’t counter attack or the keeper it’s the absolute chasm between his defence and attack with and without the ball. It’s been there all season and it gives every team we play a huge space to exploit if they can beat the press and without Hojlund its easy for even bang average defenders to slip 1 pass through our entire team.
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Sorry you do not seem to understand. Ajax is Ajax. They could be winning the Dutch League but they will not accept it if it is not their way. So ETH had to play their way and win it. The Academy plays the same way the first team plays. He really had less control of the recruitment at Ajax than he has at United. Not only him. Most coaches there. Same with Bayern.
Look at Weghorst for United. He did a very good job for United and would have done a good job for United still. He creates so much space for the other players and that space is where goals are scored. But our fans wanted a mix of Harland and Salah. United needs the water carriers and the battering rams. Not everyone can be a player like Cantona.
 
justintime said:
Sorry you do not seem to understand. Ajax is Ajax. They could be winning the Dutch League but they will not accept it if it is not their way. So ETH had to play their way and win it. The Academy plays the same way the first team plays. He really had less control of the recruitment at Ajax than he has at United. Not only him. Most coaches there. Same with Bayern.
Look at Weghorst for United. He did a very good job for United and would have done a good job for United still. He creates so much space for the other players and that space is where goals are scored. But our fans wanted a mix of Harland and Salah. United needs the water carriers and the battering rams. Not everyone can be a player like Cantona.
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You have to wonder what most United fans would have made of Jan Wouters if he had joined United as was rumoured.
 
Justin Cider said:
Indeed he was, he made that successful '88 Dutch team tick

Wouldn't have been pleasing enough of the eye for some United fans though.
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Yes and he did and that pass to Van Basten in the semi final against Germany. Johan Neeskens the man who led the pressing in the total football was actually a darn good player but he can fight with the hardest of them too.

The Rooney interview was very enlightening especially about Moyes and LVG. He said the has never been coached by a better coach than LVG. The players simply did not accept his methods and the club should have backed him. He also explained why it was boring that time as they did not have the players who can play the want him to play.
 

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