How long do we give Solskjaer?

RichH2016 said:
Just catching back up with this thread and I'm a little surprised. Seems Ole still has the backing of most fans?

Mind you not sure why that surprises me. I think Ole could have this team in a relegation battle and he'd still be largely supported.

United will probably get a result at the weekend against City. They may well even win because that is what they seem to do under Ole. When the pressure is mounting on him they get a result. That is then followed by a few more good results before the inevitable slip.

A result at the weekend delays the inevitable at this point.
Click to expand...
Fans on other forums are vocal about wanting him out. When he was hired to replace Jose it was a breath of fresh air. No one at the time thought Ole was a tactical wunderkind and everyone said he would need to bring in his own players and establish a style. To a large extend - at least in a manner United is accustomed to - he did not bring in "his" players. He's a lovely guy and a good to mediocre manager. Until someone says Person X is available and we can judge their credentials, there's no reason not to support Ole.
 
RichH2016 said:
Just catching back up with this thread and I'm a little surprised. Seems Ole still has the backing of most fans?

Mind you not sure why that surprises me. I think Ole could have this team in a relegation battle and he'd still be largely supported.
Click to expand...

But he doesn't have us in a relegation battle. He has us so that if we win our game in hand against Burnley we are in the top 4 and 2 points off of first. Why would you sack someone in that position? Do you think Pep should be sacked? Arteta and Ancelotti? Lampard? All are performing similarly or worse in their roles than Ole in the league this season.

And that bothers you. Not sure why it would surprise you that teams supporters, support team.
 
RichH2016 said:
Just catching back up with this thread and I'm a little surprised. Seems Ole still has the backing of most fans?

Mind you not sure why that surprises me. I think Ole could have this team in a relegation battle and he'd still be largely supported.

United will probably get a result at the weekend against City. They may well even win because that is what they seem to do under Ole. When the pressure is mounting on him they get a result. That is then followed by a few more good results before the inevitable slip.

A result at the weekend delays the inevitable at this point.
Click to expand...

He's not the cancer killing the club that is the owners but he probably isn't the cure either. So we sack Ole and put a new guy in he's going to have his hands tied with the same problem. They've made a commitment to Ole so they need to see it out now.

I don't have much faith in it going anywhere but he deserves at least this season to prove it's still heading forward and even if this is his last season I think he hands over a much better team/squad than the one he inherited.

We're still in a good position in the league, both domestic cups and yeah we've gone out of the CL and dropped to Europa but realistically that's what we are right now, a good europa league team and a pretty average CL team. The recent history sort of suggests that we obviously have work to do to get back to being a competitive CL team that doesn't make stupid errors like we did in Istanbul. The challenge now is to go and win the Europa League or a domestic cup and put a trophy in the cabinet which will be tough. A trophy and another top 4 finish with a higher points total than last season would have to be seen as progress.

Bad European defeats were the start of the downfalls of his two predecessors maybe this is the point where it goes that way for Ole we shall see but it's way to early at this stage to call for his head. He needed a reaction after Spurs and he's had it results came that moved us up the table performances are still hit and miss but there's quality players who can paper over the cracks.

We know he's not Klopp or Pep or some sort of revolutionary tactical genius with a proven track record but he does know what it takes to win and he understands the way our club works so he might be what the club needs right now.
 
A reason to question Ole???...
...United are out of the champions league.
It’s the europa league now.
Thursday nights, big hit to revenue, big hit to prestige.
 
I don't think the money hit is anywhere near as bad if you get knocked out in the champions League group stages as it is if you fail to make it in the first place.

Yeah it's disappointing to get knocked out. But I've always said you base a manager's performance on the league and it's nice to put trophy's in the cabinet. If we finished 5th and won the FA Cup this season though I'd expect a lot more questions of him than if we finished 2nd with no cups. As a fan cup wins are a great day and I would take an FA Cup win over a 4th place every single season but as a manager's performance it's judged on the league.

Getting knocked out after the start we had was criminal. But it was a group many expected us to struggle in. We had a finalist and a semi finalist from last season in the group and this squad of players has very little champions League experience.

I think it's easy for many to forget how inexperienced this side are. Pogba and Mata aside they're a very inexperienced and at times naive side.

If we win this weekend there'll be people on here moaning about the performance for one reason or the other. But 3 points on the board is all that matters...more worryingly is there are some on here going in to the game that want us to lose. And that I can never understand.
 
I don’t have the breakdown in front of me, but the difference in money in just making each knock out round compared to elimination at the group stage, is money no club wants to miss out on.
Saw a report on this very subject only the other day. Tied in with Real’s possible elimination and the loss of revenue. By qualifying from the group we make, if l remember, roughly 14 million. If we get to the next round it goes up from there.
Go all the way to the final and the money is big.
Win the final and there is even more money.
Europa league is impoverished in comparison.
 
The difference between getting knocked out now and in the first knockout stage is £8m.

If you think we would have gone on to win it then we've missed out on about £26m. (You'd have to believe if you think we'd have gone on to win the champions League then you think we'd go on to win the Europa League do take that revenue in to account)

The report I read is £46m loss in earnings by going on to win it and £18m loss in match day revenue. Off set by £12m in Europa earnings and the extra home game possible in the Europa. Why they believe you can count the £18m loss match day income or the extra home game im unsure of though as I don't see I'd having full capacity crowds this season.

Not that it really matters. It we have a good season we won't strengthen if we have a bad season we'll spend loads of money. Thats the way we do it.
 
Not having the lack of experience stuff anymore that excuse is gone for so many of our players. De Gea, Shaw, Lindelof, Matic, Telles, Fred, Bruno, Rashford, VDB, Martial, Cavani have all played plenty of European football now not just for Utd but at other clubs. AWB, Maguire and Greenwood were the only players I'd say you can fairly say lack European experience.

Matchday revenue doesn't really come into it this season as we won't have crowds of any significant size in for either competition if we're lucky by April/May we might be able to get crowds back to 50% capacity or something like that. Prize money/TV money will be a big hit but had we gone through as runners up we'd probably go out in round of 16 so if we bounce through a few europa league rounds we probably come out not far off square revenue wise. The big prize comes from getting into that group stage that's what they budget for at Utd anything after that is bonus.

In terms of success that is dictated by his bosses and for any manager right now at Utd top 4 is the absolute minimum target that keeps you in your job fail to get that and you get sacked. You can backdoor it with a Europa League win but Utd must qualify for the CL. 2nd and no cups or 4th and 2 cups to the bosses I don't really think it matters they just need that sweet sweet CL money.

To the fans it's a different story winning trophies is what it is all about but the 5th and a league cup vs 4th and no cup argument is an interesting one but I want to see Utd going into the CL every season not just being in it but being competitive in it. 5th and an FA cup didn't save Van Gaal but it might save Ole (I don't think it would).

We are a long way from it on the european level right now but getting CL every season does release the funds required to improve your squad which is why it's so vital and I think as fans we have to accept that this is now more important to your chances of major success than a domestic cup.

This seasons disappointment really comes from not capitalising on the perfect start in a very tough group. It was the group of death even the 4th place side Instanbul were a good 4th place side. Our group and Madrid's group were the most evenly balanced but I'd argue right now PSG/Leipzig are stronger teams than Madrid/Inter especially when Inter are notorious bottle jobs in this competition. It was in our hands and we blew it with some real disappointing moments. The calamity goal in Instanbul, not taking our chances vs PSG and Fred losing his head and the disaster of a start vs Leipzig.
 
jsp said:
Not having the lack of experience stuff anymore that excuse is gone for so many of our players. De Gea, Shaw, Lindelof, Matic, Telles, Fred, Bruno, Rashford, VDB, Martial, Cavani have all played plenty of European football now not just for Utd but at other clubs. AWB, Maguire and Greenwood were the only players I'd say you can fairly say lack European experience.
Click to expand...

Europa League and champions League are very different. How many big champions League games have Shaw, Lindelof, Telles, Fred, Bruno, Rashford, Martial played?

We are still a very young team if you'd like to agree with it or not. We've added a bit of age and maturity with Bruno, Telles and Cavani but it's still a young side with a lot to learn.
 
IDFD said:
Europa League and champions League are very different. How many big champions League games have Shaw, Lindelof, Telles, Fred, Bruno, Rashford, Martial played?

We are still a very young team if you'd like to agree with it or not. We've added a bit of age and maturity with Bruno, Telles and Cavani but it's still a young side with a lot to learn.
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Well Shaw/Rashford/Martial have had 4 CL campaigns with Utd plus Martial had some games with Monaco. In those 3 campaigns we've gone group stage, second round, quarter finals, group stage.
Lindelof was at Benfica before he came so he's been with us for 2 campaigns plus I would assume 1 or 2 with Benfica.
Fred at least 1 with Shakthar and 2 with us
Telles he's been at Porto and Galatasary so again he must have some experience.
Bruno I'd need to dig around but he's probably not had much as he was a late bloomer maybe 1 season with Sporting.

I agree it's a young team but there's plenty of experience in that squad now to support those youngsters all these players have got well over 100 top flight games under their belts now on big money they are not kids.

The standard is obviously much higher in CL compared to Europa where our B team could get through the group stage but part of those Europa campaigns is getting the experience to help in the CL. I don't think we looked that fantastic in the EL last season, the comp at the end of the last season we were on our backsides physically but we still didn't really have the know how to beat a well organised Sevilla side and we limped past Copenhagen.

What the group stage this time showed is this lot just aren't good enough yet to fight at this level they make mistakes and don't punish the opponents enough when they make them. Of course tough group is important to remember if we were in City, Liverpool or Chelsea's group we probably get through maybe even win the group.

Apart from PSG (I didn't watch this game so I can't really say what happened) I don't think we really went out with a plan in any game to dominate the game and dictate how it was played and impose ourselves on the opponent. We never really looked to expose an obvious weakness in our opponent. All to often we are reacting to what our opponent does rather than dictating the way the game is played.
 
IDFD...
...think you must be getting your info from the Beano.
Your numbers are ridiculous. It’s fantasy.
When Madrid were winning 3 straight, revenue approached and exceeded 100 million.
If you think Utd would have made only 26 million from here to lifting the trophy, then l’m speechless. Why do you think there is so much fuss surrounding this competition???
Money!!!
If clubs earned what you claimed they wouldn’t bother...
 
I think you're being deliberately obtuse and ignoring the money that's already made from the Champions League and the offset in money from the Europa League.

However here are the figures for you. You can do the same maths.

www.google.com

Man Utd miss out on potential £50m kitty as repercussions of CL exit revealed

MANCHESTER UNITED are staring at a potential £50million financial black hole after their Champions League debacle. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer’s side suffered humiliation as they lost to RB Leipzig to sli…
www.google.com

Here is one that shows we'll lose £15m by not making the quarter finals

www.telegraph.co.uk

Champions League group stage elimination would cost Manchester United £15m

United budget to reach the Champions League quarter-finals whenever they are in the competition
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk

So drop your Beano nonsense and being out of order and realise just how lucrative the group stages and qualification for that is which is why the top 4 is such a big thing. I never at any point claimed clubs make £26m I said that's what it's cost us. And I know you're intelligent enough to completely understand what I said so dont make ridiculous arguments.
 
losblancos said:
IDFD...
...think you must be getting your info from the Beano.
Your numbers are ridiculous. It’s fantasy.
When Madrid were winning 3 straight, revenue approached and exceeded 100 million.
If you think Utd would have made only 26 million from here to lifting the trophy, then l’m speechless. Why do you think there is so much fuss surrounding this competition???
Money!!!
If clubs earned what you claimed they wouldn’t bother...
Click to expand...

The big chunk of money comes at the start after that it's not as lucrative and it's complicated to work out.

Each team gets prize money from UEFA per round everyone gets the same but you also get share of the TV money depending on how lucrative the deal for your country is. That money is split depending on how many teams from your federation go through so if 1 goes through you take the whole pot if 4 go through you share it between the 4 teams.

The same applies in Europa but it's obviously not as lucrative because the prize and TV deals are nowhere near as big.

So yes we lose CL revenue going forward but we gain EL revenue which from the knockout rounds actually isn't to bad.

You are ignoring one really important thing which the Glazers worked out long ago which is winning doesn't actually make you any more profitable.
 
IDFD...
...l’m aware clubs do well financially from the group stage.
Winning each match is worth 2.7 million, a draw 900,000.
Round 16: CL 9.5 million, EL 1.1 million
QF: CL 11 million, EL 1.5 million
SF: CL 12 million, EL 2.4 million
Runner up: CL 15 million, EL 4.5 million
Winners: CL 19 million, EL 8.5 million

In addition, CL winners play in UEFA Super Cup.
Win is worth 4.5 million, defeat 3.5 million

In addition, clubs competing in CL receive revenue based on their tv market pool.

I think those numbers dwarf your 26 million figure.
And, “OBTUSE”...
...how dare you!!!
 
Who, realistically do you replace Ole with? It must be someone who plays the same way else we'll be going backwards again.

Point is, anybody who comes in will face the same as Jose and Ole have in not being backed properly. The manager will say I need X, Y and Z and the board will bring in P, Q and R! and two of those will be kids not ready to play no doubt.

Tell me something... if Ole got to buy a decent RF, a CDM and a CB of his choice in this window just gone, do you not think we'd be a better team now? We still need those players and have done, especially the RF, since Ronnie went and we STILL haven't got one in. Now we have to wait another season and am I confident we'll bring the right players in? Absolutely not!

Has Cavani, VDB and Pellesti, or whatever the hell his name is, changed this season? Cavani might do a bit but not the rest. Why didn't we buy better?

And you want Ole out??? Things need to change with Ronald Woodward MacDonald and the Chuckle brothers upstairs before this club goes anywhere. How will Poch do any better with the way they operate? Why buy VDB when we have Pogba and Bruno in the same sort of positions when we needed a RF much more importantly? They are just clueless.
 
losblancos said:
jsp...
...check out the numbers l referenced to IDFD.
Hope you, too, don’t read the beano...
Click to expand...

Your own numbers only equate to a €39m difference between winning the Europa and the Champions League. Then you have to factor in the extra Europa League home game. So €33m.

Only difference being you're using Euros not pounds.

So nowhere near the £100m loss you suggested earlier and a lot closer to the figure I suggested. The Europa League winners also play in the Super Cup so doesn't make a difference.

I gave you two links that proved the financial burden isn't as bad as you're trying to make out. Plus our projections only count for us getting to the quarter final of the champions League so winning the Europa wouldn't take any hit at all.

Again, the big thing about qualifying for the champions League is the amount of money you get just from being in it for the TV money. Not the prize money going with it.

No one is arguing that bailing out isn't bad but it isn't the hit you're trying to make out. And there was no need for the nonsense you posted to go with it. The two links I posted are enough.
 
This is Wiki info but basically from this point on Utd can earn 14m euro in prize money by winning the europa league compared to a potential win of 51m euro if we won CL, so yeah we've lost out of 37m of potential prize money this season by dropping to the Europa League.

There would also be a lot of lost TV revenue so all in potential loss of over 50m by going out in the group.
 
And these losses are magnified by the lack of match day revenue, so while these figures are paltry in the grand accounting, during the Covid economic catastrophe they are particularly painful.
 
They aren’t losses though unless you budget for them you should never budget for something you aren’t very sure of getting. Utd’s budget for this season probably assumed last 16 anything better would be bonus so they’ve go5 to make that up with EL income now.

Also, champions league progress comes at a cost increased player bonuses and possibly triggered further transfer payments.

This season without fans it isn’t as damaging either because matchday revenue in EL is the same as CL a big fat zero. So doesnt matter that you’d be charging 30 per game rather than 50 if no one can come.
 
Consistency is the issue. Again. It seems like this is Ole's main weakness.

The reasons for the inconsistency also seems to vary, so how do you fix it?

Sack the manager? I wouldn't, at least not until we have a DoF in place and settled, to help select a replacement.

Would having a DoF bring some consistency, if one was bought in anyway? Maybe, if the current players fit thier vision.

Would a replacement manager have a better chance with a DoF in place? Yes; most successful managers seem to work with one, in some cases they are a big reason for success.

Without a DoF, I fear the ongoing building process will breakdown and we will be back to square one.
 
A DoF isn't always the answer to your problems just look at Arsenal since Wenger/Gazidis left they've gone through various directors who haven't exactly delivered success or a coherent plan.

It just needs there to be evidence of a plan it seems like Ole has been given the necessary rope to overhaul the squad he's frozen players out that aren't wanted but because of Covid Utd were not able to move on as many of these players as he'd hoped. Since he arrived we've seen Fellaini, Sanchez, Lukaku and Smalling all leave he's clearly trying to get Lingard, Jones, Romero & Rojo to depart and that will likely all happen by the start of next season. Pogba will also likely depart the club as could players like Bailly, Mata & Matic

Incoming wise it's hard to really knock what he's done so far.

On the pitch it's still a bit up and down I think that's largely because we have a lot of players who are up and down we don't have many who you can rely on to sustain a consistently high level of performance. Those that do provide a bit of consistency are not of the highest quality and the way we play it relies on one of the attacking boys coming to life in a game to spark the goals. It is counter attack football the problem with that style is when the opponent does it back to you it kind of kills the game and if you concede the first goal it can be hard to come back against a good opponent.

Sacking Ole now would be silly this season is crazy there's almost no time on the training pitch so a new coach wouldn't be able to impose anything meaningful on this squad during the season. So you have to let Ole see it out if he doesn't get CL football then he probably does lose his job but he leaves it in a better place than he found it. If they do change it's vital that they find someone who is happy working with what is there and doesn't expect to overhaul the squad again because that just can't happen.
 
IDFD...
...just seen your post (heavy workload).
39m to 33m?
How does that happen?
Hope you’ve dialled up your reading material.
And another thing...
...relax a little and don’t always be quick to take offence.
People call for Ole to go... you go into overdrive. Use words like “toxic”.
I would imagine the vast majority of Utd fans want him out.
I say stop reading comics... you take it personally. Don’t.
It’s not personal...
...only fun.
Now where did l put my wife???
Sh@t, can’t remember...
 
As I said I've posted two links to back up what I've said. Another meaningless post of drivel in which you've still not backed up your claim of a potential hundred million loss for us. I take it essentially you've realised I was correct and much closer to the mark. Fact is we projected to get to the quarter finals and we've lost a projected £9m nothing to worry about sacking Ole over.

And I take offence when people are rude. As you are.

I'd stick to focusing on getting your work load under control.
 
@losblancos You're not helping the situation though are you as you're not supporting what you post IDFD has actually looked up the financial impact of dropping from CL to EL and it's nowhere near as bad as you made out. Accept you were wrong and move on from it.

Yeah the club probably aren't that happy about it but maybe this is what happens when you don't buy the manager the players he wanted in the summer. Ole clearly wanted a top quality right winger and he was given 2 kids one of which doesn't come until January. Ole has been a lot more diplomatic about this failure that our previous manager would have ever been. Not saying that's a good thing because it means the board get away with it but he's not using it as an excuse that will create a toxic atmosphere within a fanbase/dressing room.

As for the vast majority wanting Ole out twitter is not the place to form any opinion about the fan base but I post on another Utd forum and it's very similar to this one it's split 25% maybe full Ole out 25% fill Ole in and quite a few who are undecided on him.

Most people aren't going to boo him out the door or get on his back about the club though because we all accept this situation is not his fault it's the people above him who are creating these problems for our manager.
 
Shows how far we've fallen as a club when we're trying to quantify how much we lose financially by dropping from the CL group stage to the EL. Seriously? It fking sucks going out of the CL at group stages, EL is a sh*t tournament, a European football backwater. Look at the clubs in the EL vs what United should be, look at others who got out of their CL group when we didn't, it's simply not good enough for Manchester United. Change of ownership is badly needed, that won't happen, Woodward out also highly unlikely, so the axe must fall on the lowest hanging fruit, Ole and his staff GTFO and get in Pochettino or Nagelsman, see what they can get out of the current squad and get the chequebook out in the summer.
 
I guess you just have to try to take any positives you can. We were never going to win the champions league, and whilst we are in with a great shout of a top 4 place I do not think it is a foregone conclusion. Europe league might represent our best chance of Champions league football next season. As I have said several times I feel Ole has serious question marks against him in terms of coaching but I do not think he is anywhere near being sacked right now
 
jsp said:
A DoF isn't always the answer to your problems just look at Arsenal since Wenger/Gazidis left they've gone through various directors who haven't exactly delivered success or a coherent plan.

It just needs there to be evidence of a plan it seems like Ole has been given the necessary rope to overhaul the squad he's frozen players out that aren't wanted but because of Covid Utd were not able to move on as many of these players as he'd hoped. Since he arrived we've seen Fellaini, Sanchez, Lukaku and Smalling all leave he's clearly trying to get Lingard, Jones, Romero & Rojo to depart and that will likely all happen by the start of next season. Pogba will also likely depart the club as could players like Bailly, Mata & Matic

Incoming wise it's hard to really knock what he's done so far.

On the pitch it's still a bit up and down I think that's largely because we have a lot of players who are up and down we don't have many who you can rely on to sustain a consistently high level of performance. Those that do provide a bit of consistency are not of the highest quality and the way we play it relies on one of the attacking boys coming to life in a game to spark the goals. It is counter attack football the problem with that style is when the opponent does it back to you it kind of kills the game and if you concede the first goal it can be hard to come back against a good opponent.

Sacking Ole now would be silly this season is crazy there's almost no time on the training pitch so a new coach wouldn't be able to impose anything meaningful on this squad during the season. So you have to let Ole see it out if he doesn't get CL football then he probably does lose his job but he leaves it in a better place than he found it. If they do change it's vital that they find someone who is happy working with what is there and doesn't expect to overhaul the squad again because that just can't happen.
Click to expand...

Completely agree jsp; was making the point that modern managers rely on there being a director of football, so changing now would not be a good idea.

If we do get a director of football it would have to one with the right vision. My main concern is if the club leadership are competent enough to pick the right one.
 
Tari said:
Completely agree jsp; was making the point that modern managers rely on there being a director of football, so changing now would not be a good idea.

If we do get a director of football it would have to one with the right vision. My main concern is if the club leadership are competent enough to pick the right one.
Click to expand...

In my head Woodward found his director of football 2 years ago the mistake he made was making him manager.

Ole is getting so much bang on off the pitch with the signings and sales I just worry that on the pitch he isn’t quite at the cutting edge of the modern game. Can he maybe do what Fergie did at times and get great assistants around him to possibly cover that weakness.
 
jsp said:
In my head Woodward found his director of football 2 years ago the mistake he made was making him manager.

Ole is getting so much bang on off the pitch with the signings and sales I just worry that on the pitch he isn’t quite at the cutting edge of the modern game. Can he maybe do what Fergie did at times and get great assistants around him to possibly cover that weakness.
Click to expand...
Great points jsp, Ole certainly knows what players have that United DNA could be good on the strategy / technical development side of things. Agree totally on the coaching side to, guys like Carrick and Mckenna are inexperienced to, Phelan was always a no. 2, would be great if Ole had a Queroz type assistant to lean on at times.
 
jsp said:
In my head Woodward found his director of football 2 years ago the mistake he made was making him manager.

Ole is getting so much bang on off the pitch with the signings and sales I just worry that on the pitch he isn’t quite at the cutting edge of the modern game. Can he maybe do what Fergie did at times and get great assistants around him to possibly cover that weakness.
Click to expand...
I know. Man I miss Rene Meulensteen, now that was a guy who knew how to get into a player's head.
 
IDFD...
...show me where l ever said that Utd would lose 100million by being eliminated so early. I’ve just seen your post, had a quick look, and l can’t see where l said that.
Now you are reading the Beano, aren’t you?
If you paid a bit more attention, l said Real’s revenue “approached and exceeded” 100million when we were winning 3 straight.
And another thing, l appreciate being allowed to comment on here from time to time (as an outsider), but l don’t have the time to post endlessly, so l don’t always respond immediately.
My only mistake was to say “wife”.
Should have said concubine.
Now, if you please, show me where l said your losses would be 100million.
And, did l ever say my workload wasn’t under control???
I just said “heavy workload”.
You do like to misquote me. Sorry, was that “rude”.
I’ll take a look this afternoon.
 

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