When will Mourinho be sacked?

Neville summed it up perfectly. Jose isn’t the problem


Its both. Jose is part of the problem but it was the boards fault he was appointed in the first place. Jose is a symptom of the problem that Neville is pin pointing , there is something rotten and it was there before Jose arrived. But that doesn't mean Jose himself is some pawn in the game who can't make choices. When he wasn't given money for a centre back he could have got on with it and done the very best with what he had. Instead it seems like he gave up , sulked and criticised the board in public.

Don't forget that when Fergie arrived it wasn't as if the club was in tip top shape in many ways and it took him 3-4 years to make progress but he did do it. Now it feels like the club has become too big and too corporate and its forgotten that it's a football club first and foremost and a company second.

Just because something is rotten in this club doesn't mean that Jose hasn't brought his own distinctive brand of stagnant mould with him from Chelsea to add to the great pile of decomposing compost that Woodward et al are creating from all those bank notes. God the stench of it all!
 
I think Jose has made some bad decisions this season. But not signing a CB and right winger is why we are where we are. They’ve employed a manager and not given him the Players he needs to play his system. I don’t care if he has spent 60m on CB they aren’t good enough and they should have hit the market.

So we have a manager who likes a certain system with the wrong players.

The club have also let Jose down with Pogba, the club should have spoken out about him.

Neville has basically said what I and many think.

Unfortunately Jose hasn’t handled it very well and had lost some support.

So I think we are at the point that the board and the manager and playing staff need changing. We need to get rid of Pogba at the first opportunity because he is trouble
 
So we have a manager who likes a certain system with the wrong players.

You're not wrong... But in the 2 and a half years he's been here we haven't seen any signs of this system that he wants to employ. There's no sign of it at all.

And his style and his management is really out of date now anyway.
 
You're not wrong... But in the 2 and a half years he's been here we haven't seen any signs of this system that he wants to employ. There's no sign of it at all.

And his style and his management is really out of date now anyway.

What's really telling for me is how inflexible he is. He seems to expect players to adapt and mould themselves , change , play out of their preferred positions and yet he doesn't seem capable of having a proper re-think of his own tactics and style (or his own man management). He hasn't changed or moved on since Chelsea or appear to have learnt from mistakes (he probably thinks he can't make any). He's basically not evolving as a manager while the rest of football is going in a different direction. And at the same time the press , the fans, the pundits , the board , the players all have to do a re-think - but he is exempt from a re-think? Players have to be humble.......but can he be humble?

That's reason enough for him to go. He's not learning or evolving.
 
For me, after seeing that 20 minute comeback and also seeing other comebacks notably at City and Palace last season it is obvious this team/squad actually has it in them to play great attacking football and score goals. It's also obvious that Mourinho can't get this team/squad playing like that regularly. We need a manager that the team will play like that for 70 minutes from kick off, not for the odd 20 minutes when we are 2 nil down into the second half.

Unfortunately I think that Jose wont be sacked until its mathematically impossible for him to secure his goals in his contract and they can then sack him with a greatly reduced payoff due to the clauses.
 
You're not wrong... But in the 2 and a half years he's been here we haven't seen any signs of this system that he wants to employ. There's no sign of it at all.

And his style and his management is really out of date now anyway.

I think he bought two CB's that he thought would work, they didn't so he spent most of last season season playing a system to suit our poor defence, which meant an even more defensive formation than normal.

I suppose he expected to be supported in the transfer market this year to resolve it but he wasn't.

This is why I think a lot of this seasons problems is because of decsions made at higher level. But as I said, I don't think Jose has handled it very well, but I guess it is his reputation on the line as well as the fortunes of the club.

We just don't have good enough players, it's a s simple as that, but they did prove if they put 100% in then they can get results.
 
Decisions above his head have been a problem for him but if he's such a great manager worth £15m a year why isn't he improving the players he has at his disposal? Defensively which players have improved under Mourinho the great defensive coach of our era? Shaw is basically back to where he was 3 years ago, Jones/Smalling/Rojo are all largely the same players they were when they arrived, Bailly/Lindelof haven't improved. Valencia/Young are deteroriorating with age as is to be expected. The other areas of the team pretty much follow the same pattern which player has improved under Mourinho's coaching?

Mourinho always wants more players but he needs to show that if you give him more he'll get the best out of them because we can't get rid of the ones we have. That's not all his fault because most of the ones we were trying to shift were signed before he came but we can only have 25 men in a squad and we were on the limit. I think if we'd have sold more of the current squad they'd have given him most players. It was basically 1 in 1 out Blind out for Dalot & Carrick out for Fred.

It sounds like Rojo & Darmian were up for sale but no buyer was found, Fellaini was out the door but Mourinho begged the club to keep him which they did so there just wasn't room for new signings. Now the structure is part of this problem Utd need to be better operators in the market not just for buying players but also selling players.

Mourinho for me pushed to hard in the summer and it created to much negativity going into the new season we all knew the problem was there but it wasn't a war that needed fighting in public as there's no way Woodward would allow himself to be bullied in public.

To me the failure of the summer was this magical list of players wasn't agreed before last season even ended it seems like Mourinho had 1 list, Woodward had another list and rather than all sit and agree it they decided to do nothing and then take petty shots at each other in public.

At this stage I think Mourinho does need to go it feels like he's losing friends fast and it just needs a fresh face that won't solve the structural issues above but it might solve the harmony within the playing squad and get them performing on a more regular basis .
 
Shaw has definitely improved while Jose has been at the club,Smalling and Jones are limited, although I do think Smalling has improved a bit and I would be inclined to keep him as 1 of the 4. Bailly just isn;t good enough. Lindelof is a weird one, becasue he is a good player, he just can't cope with the pressure or the league. Rojo, well it's a mystery how he got a new deal.
The full backs aren't even defenders so you could say he has improved them as defenders.

They must have talked transfers when they gave him a new deal, told him what would be avaialable. Then went back on it.

There seems to be harmony in the squad, they don't actually seem that pee'd off with Jose that seems 80% press talk. But they are really struggling with the pressure of playing for Man Utd. The spotlight is like no other club
 
We don't really know what was discussed did they agree something and Mourinho upped his demands after he got his contract for example? We just don't know.

It's clear though that there was no real plan in place Fred & Dalot were locked in early as was Grant but the rest of the options seemed a bit up in the air and someone isn't telling the truth. It's pretty clear that they all agreed the club needed a centre back but they couldn't find one that satisfied the manager and the board. I still think a lot came down to us not being able to shift players we don't need if we'd done that I think we'd have signed someone but the squad was full so hands were tied.

The thing that screwed it really was the comments from Woodward post transfer window he didn't need to leak all that stuff to the papers he needed to keep his mouth shut instead he poured fuel on the flames. Mourinho had already started having his digs made it very clear on tour he wasn't happy with the transfer window activity and outside the club it felt like everything was starting off very negative no one felt we had a chance this season.

In terms of the squad harmony it's very hard to tell where things are hopefully Newcastle lifts them maybe a few weeks apart does them good not seeing the same faces every day because we need to be bang on it for the next round of games if the team can come together and get results the season is back on track. If the next month goes badly it's probably a write off.
 
I did read exchange rate and brexit euro/gbp/dollar might be having an affect on transfers as well as stocks
 
Utd always do the unexpected. At the minute it wouldn’t surprise me to see us pull one out the bag and beat Chelsea and get a decent result home and away against Juve, but on the flip side if we got hammered in all 3 game that wouldn’t surprise me either
 
For me, after seeing that 20 minute comeback and also seeing other comebacks notably at City and Palace last season it is obvious this team/squad actually has it in them to play great attacking football and score goals. It's also obvious that Mourinho can't get this team/squad playing like that regularly. We need a manager that the team will play like that for 70 minutes from kick off, not for the odd 20 minutes when we are 2 nil down into the second half.

Unfortunately I think that Jose wont be sacked until its mathematically impossible for him to secure his goals in his contract and they can then sack him with a greatly reduced payoff due to the clauses.

How does that work though if the reduced payout doesn’t match the reduced revenue from missing out on 4th place the CL? Surely even Woodward can do the maths? Doesn’t it make sense to sack him and give another manager a chance for 4th spot? We ain’t gonna make it with Jose.
 
Ftr sacking Mourinho cost us less than finishing 20th in the league
 
Not sure if the above came through clearly but what I meant was that I don’t think the board can use the money issue as a reason to not sack him. Reading up on his contract extension send only have to pay him up until the end of the season he’s sacked in to remove him.
 
There is a board meeting tomorrow I believe. So it will then or give him the season I would say.

I must say the idea of Jardim sounds good to me. Even though I only read up on him yesterday. He sounds like everything a united coach should be.

What they need to discuss tomorrow is what is going to happen to all the players contracts, if they are not willing to sign new deals then I'm afraid he has to go. Even though I think most of the squad needs changing, we can't have them all go in 2 seasons.
 
I did read exchange rate and brexit euro/gbp/dollar might be having an affect on transfers as well as stocks

I think the Neymar/Mbappe thing is what killed transfers this summer no one really made a huge splash apart from Juventus with Ronaldo.

Madrid didn't sign a replacement, Barca did some business but no superstar name, Bayern did very little, City signed 1 player. The market I think has just become so bloated and broken because of that Neymar deal it moved the bar to much and even Madrid are looking at a guy like Hazard and probably hearing £150m plus his wages thinking we just can't do that sort of deal.

Who knows how Brexit will effect football obviously if freedom of movement is restricted again then any non British player will need some sort of visa to come here. I think British players who move to Europe may also be subject to higher taxes as non eu nationals some countries tax non eu workers higher than eu workers.
 
For the tax, for me, as I spend more than 6 months here I am classed as a French resident for tax purposes.
 
How does that work though if the reduced payout doesn’t match the reduced revenue from missing out on 4th place the CL? Surely even Woodward can do the maths? Doesn’t it make sense to sack him and give another manager a chance for 4th spot? We ain’t gonna make it with Jose.

What Mourinho achieves or doesn't achieve has nothing to do with lost club revenue, Mourinho isn't going to foot a £50m bill or whatever, it's ridiculous to suggest that. His payoff will be, according to his contract, £Xm, if he fails to get top 4 it will be £Xm - £Ym.
 
I think it varies from country to country as there is no EU tax law as far as I'm aware some countries looking to attract skilled workers offer tax incenstives for example in Spain I think they offer favourable tax breaks to skilled labour to attract them and footballers somehow fall into that category. It's not quite the way it was 10 years ago but it's still better than what the Spanish players get.

As for the contracts the clubs a mess this summer they face losing Darmian, Shaw, Mata & Herrera for nothing as contracts expire and Martial & De Gea both enter the final year of current contracts.

De Gea has reportedly been offered a lot less than Sanchez/Pogba both earn so he's not happy he feels as the 4 time player of the year he deserves parity with top earners and rightfully so if you ask me. If you give out these stupid contracts to top earners all the players below benchmark themselves against that.

The wage bill has spun a bit out of control because we are paying top dollar to new players which will annoy existing players especially when the new players haven't really performed to the level we had hoped consistently. The club needs to stop attracting players with money believe it or not players actually accept less money to sign for some top teams because they are desperate to go there.
 
De Gea has every right to get the hump. He should be top earner at the club. Woodward is a joke with contract and player negotiations.
 
To be honest if I was De Gea I'd be expecting to be paid at least parity with the top earners at the club if they want me to stay as I'd feel I've earned that but to be honest in his situation I'd probably consider less to go elsewhere if there's a chance of trophies. He's made a lot of money by 28 so he doesn't need to chase the cash with one last contract but his only major honour is a PL title he's never played in the 1/4 final of the CL for example a player of his quality deserves to be playing those games and he kind of missed the glory glory years with Spain.

There are some rumours that the Mourinho sack story was actually a leak from his side not someone within the club as he knew the fans would react in a certain way to it and get behind the team. If he did leak that story he probably didn't expect to go 2-0 down to bottom of the league so it's good for him that they did come back and win.

If you think about it if Valencia was the last straw why give him Newcastle just sack him and get it over and done with.

I'm pretty resigned to him being here to the end of the season as I just don't think the club want to sack managers mid season as they're not setup to deal with it. They've got enough on their plate sorting out player contracts and finding this director of football without also having to pay off Mourinho and find a replacement especially when all the guys they might like are in work.
 
What Mourinho achieves or doesn't achieve has nothing to do with lost club revenue, Mourinho isn't going to foot a £50m bill or whatever, it's ridiculous to suggest that. His payoff will be, according to his contract, £Xm, if he fails to get top 4 it will be £Xm - £Ym.
I’m not suggesting anything of the sort. I think you have completely misunderstood me. It’s what the club wins or loses. Woodward might lose some money sacking Mou early but he will have a net gain if by sacking Mou someone else gets us into 4th.

I don’t care what Mou gets , it’s just about getting into the CL , which is far more important than Mou’s pay off. Unless of course the club has given up? I say sack him now, pay the 29m or whatever and try for 4th. Otherwise it’s no CL next season.
 
Quite funny really, we as fans care about out getting top 4 for UCL football but do we even have much chance getting out the group stages each year at the minute? Does it actually matter anymore unless we can make a good challenge?
 
The only thing CL football offers is the chance to sign players.
I’m not so bothered about CL this year. It’s a right off. We either need back Jose in the market or get someone else in who they will back. This wishy washy management from the board is very damaging to the club.
 
It is great as fans to see us play the like of Juve again but it's a shame it wont be a game we will head into with much confidence unless we get a result at Chelsea.
 
One reason it matters. Money. Once you fall
Completely off of the Champions League money train it isn’t easy getting back aboard
 
Quite funny really, we as fans care about out getting top 4 for UCL football but do we even have much chance getting out the group stages each year at the minute? Does it actually matter anymore unless we can make a good challenge?

I don't care about being in it I care about winning or certainly challenging for it settling for top 4 and the second round just to get the money isn't worth the trouble because what comes in goes straight back out the door in wages because if your a CL club you pay more money.

Utd's ambition should never be just to be in it. The ambition is to win it that's not to say you have to win it but you need to be competitive and if you build a team that can compete for the CL every season chances are that team will do pretty well in the league as well or vica versa build a team capable of winning the league chances are it'll do well in Europe to.

I can't stand the CL group stages it does nothing for me probaby a bit of fatigue of kind of always being in it but it feels very routine and it's setup to favour the bigger clubs because of the seeding I think UEFA have realised this and are looking at ways of freshing it up. As the top sides smashing teams 5-0 home and away gets a bit boring after a few years. Interestingly the Dutch sides have all agreed to share the money they earn from European competitions this season with the rest of the league to try to improve the overall quality of the league bit off topic but always felt this i something all leagues should do.

I think we have a manager with these ambitions he wants to win he doesn't want to compete he wants to win. That you can't doubt but it does feel like currently he feels he isn't really able to compete because he knows the squad isn't good enough which is why he's kicking off with anyone and everyone. His whole image is based around being a winner so when he doesn't win he goes nuts and quite often that leads to his downfall.

That said I think the way he's gone about it has made things worse than they needed to be because negativity spreads like a virus in a business and a football club is no different he can say this is all for the cameras but it's obvious he's got a few guys in that dressing room who aren't 100% behind him but he's not allowed to get rid of them.
 
One reason it matters. Money. Once you fall
Completely off of the Champions League money train it isn’t easy getting back aboard


Absolutely. We can't afford to be complacent about CL qualification or the benefits it brings (eg players wanting to come here). I'm old enough to remember when United were the richest club in England with the most fans and could buy the best players if they wanted to - but still languished in mid table and looked miles off the league.
 
I think we have a manager with these ambitions he wants to win he doesn't want to compete he wants to win.


Ermmm....he could have fooled me against Sevilla last season. How did we "compete" in those games - it was dreadful , timid and shambolic. Our squad was easily better and way more pricey than theirs.
 
His whole image is based around being a winner so when he doesn't win he goes nuts and quite often that leads to his downfall.


..........Which strikes me as being very childish and completely inappropriate for a Man Utd manager. I expect our manager to care more about the club and less about his image and work hard to put it right rather have a hissy fit and then search around for anything and everything to blame but himself.

The simple fact is that if you look at the players we have , many of them have shown what they are capable of at times (and very much so at other clubs) so they can't be that bad. I would be fascinated to see what would happen under a different manager with a different way of playing and man managing.

I've got this hunch that we might be quite surprised at what they can produce. A crap manager can make world beaters look like dummies if he instils negativity and fear into his team.
 
Ermmm....he could have fooled me against Sevilla last season. How did we "compete" in those games - it was dreadful , timid and shambolic. Our squad was easily better and way more pricey than theirs.

He's conservative in his approach to winning he wants to win 1-0 not 10-0 we all know that.

He clearly felt over the 2 legs play cautiously and try to win 1-0 over 180 minutes he's a man who's quoted as saying in 2 leg competition if he's playing at home first he considers 0-0 a great result as it removes the risk of away goals. He wasn't low scoring ties that we control by not giving away chances that didn't work because Seville were able to cut through us easily and we carried zero attacking threat.

The point is in those games Seville won because they played like a team at that point last season Utd were a mess playing like individuals. We were still trying to fit Sanchez into the team, Pogba was out of form/injured and started both games on the bench, Lukaku was struggling for goals, Matic was knackered etc.

Forget what the squad costs or earns bad players with bad attitudes can cost/earn lots of money Utd's squad I don't think has the talent to make big splashes in Europe apart from Pogba not one of our outfield players is getting a move to Juventus, Madrid, Barca etc.

..........Which strikes me as being very childish and completely inappropriate for a Man Utd manager. I expect our manager to care more about the club and less about his image and work hard to put it right rather have a hissy fit and then search around for anything and everything to blame but himself.

The simple fact is that if you look at the players we have , many of them have shown what they are capable of at times (and very much so at other clubs) so they can't be that bad. I would be fascinated to see what would happen under a different manager with a different way of playing and man managing.

I've got this hunch that we might be quite surprised at what they can produce. A crap manager can make world beaters look like dummies if he instils negativity and fear into his team.

True but self preservation is the era we live in for management now they're hired guns/consultants paid to do a job that they see as short term fixers not long term career moves. Go in get sh*t done cash your cheque and leave. You won't find another Ferguson those guys don't existing the Ferguson type people are the sporting directors now they make long term decisions they employ coaches to make short term ones like who plays on Saturday not should we buy/sell/loan this player. The only manager who maybe has that loyalty and those qualities is Howe he's built something at Bournemouth.

I think there are serious questions about some of our players ability very few were proven at the top level prior to coming to Utd and those that were never really created the form from the previous club at Utd but they weren't signed from teams who played like Utd apart from maybe Matic coming from Chelsea. I think there are good players there but the balance when you put them all together isn't right and it has been that way for a long time Fergie built great teams not every player in that team was a superstar but he was doing something that helped the team. You don't need 10 Ronaldo's you need a few Park's or Brown's no thrills reliable players Utd currently don't have enough of them we have to many who go from an 8 to a 4 game to game.

In the hypothetical world if we started the season again with a different manager I still think this team would be looking at 3rd or 4th this season but it might be a bit more fun to watch and currently we are looking more like 6th or 7th as the wheels have really come off.
 
True but self preservation is the era we live in for management now they're hired guns/consultants paid to do a job that they see as short term fixers not long term career moves. Go in get sh*t done cash your cheque and leave. You won't find another Ferguson those guys don't existing the Ferguson type people are the sporting directors now they make long term decisions they employ coaches to make short term ones like who plays on Saturday not should we buy/sell/loan this player. The only manager who maybe has that loyalty and those qualities is Howe he's built something at Bournemouth.


What? If that's true about Jose then what's all this talk about "playing for the crest rather than the name on the back of the shirt"? And how can we criticise Pogba if he's thinking that his short career would be better served at some other club rather than playing ineffective , crap football under Jose? It should be the same standard for managers as it it for players. If anything players have more of an excuse than managers to be indulging in self preservation because their careers are shorter.

Anyway , I don't expect Jose to completely martyr himself to Man United and not care about himself , I'm just saying that he goes way beyond this due to his arrogance. As one pundit put it recently , he's got the "biggest ego the premier league has ever seen". I think the Fergies and the Wengers are rare , but I still think its possible to have a long term project with a manager who can make that project far more than being just about his own ego.
 
What? If that's true about Jose then what's all this talk about "playing for the crest rather than the name on the back of the shirt"? And how can we criticise Pogba if he's thinking that his short career would be better served at some other club rather than playing ineffective , crap football under Jose? It should be the same standard for managers as it it for players. If anything players have more of an excuse than managers to be indulging in self preservation because their careers are shorter.

Anyway , I don't expect Jose to completely martyr himself to Man United and not care about himself , I'm just saying that he goes way beyond this due to his arrogance. As one pundit put it recently , he's got the "biggest ego the premier league has ever seen". I think the Fergies and the Wengers are rare , but I still think its possible to have a long term project with a manager who can make that project far more than being just about his own ego.

We are fans we care about our club the players/managers are employees you expect them to act like professionals but to expect everyone of them to care deeply about the club is ridiculous most of the players at Utd don't owe us anything they didn't come through the academy it's very different to how it was 20/30 years ago. These guys fly in and out of Manchester like it's any other city in the world as soon as they've got days off they're off to all sorts of places they don't go and explore the city and learn the culture.

All the stuff about Pogba this year I've defended him on because Mourinho has set the culture he pulled the same tricks a year ago to get his new contract he flirted with PSG and other clubs to force the boards hand into negotiations earlier than they wanted. Pogba seems to be doing a similar thing and his motivation seems to be to force the board into deciding between him and the manager only issue with that is currently he can't go anywhere because the transfer window is shut. Had he made this position clear at the start of the summer rather than the end he might have got sold but then again he needs to find a club willing to pay us £100m and him his £20m a year salary right now I don't think there's a club who need him that badly.

Mourinho does have a whopper of an ego but he feels his proven track record affords him certain power and control on decisions within a club and being allowed to act however he pleases but eventually the club/players always fight back and when they do it ends in a car crash. Normally he's delivered success before that proper success like league titles not the second rate cups but Utd are probably the club he took over who were furthest from that when he joined so it's all relative. The man is marmite for every player that's worked with him who adores him there's one who can't stand him and wouldn't p*ss on him if he was on fire.

For me Utd need voices above the manager who understand what this club means to the fans and it's traditions and they should set a long term goal like in 5 years time we want to win the European Cup accept where we are now and plan something, even if it means taking 1 step back this season or next season to take 2 forward. That plan might involve changing the manager once or twice maybe even 3 times in that 5 years but the manager now is just like a striker he might work out and bang 30 goals or he might not and you have to replace him.
 
Bear in mind that it’s quite possible that Pogba doesn’t want to leave. I agree with a lot of what you have said here but can we assume he wants to leave? Pogba’s comments after the Wolves match were about the lack of attacking football and questioning the philosophy of the manager. Maybe he was genuinely pissed off with Jose for publicly criticising him and gave him some of it back? The rest is conjecture and assumptions.

What if that is what he actually meant to say. Nothing more and nothing less? Why do we have to assume there is some hidden meaning to what he said? We know that’s the way Jose operates but not everyone talks in code.
 
we know his agent has been trying to get him out as a fact. I'd assume his client knows about that.
 

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