What needs to change?

RichH2016

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OK guys so I'm going to try and keep this post with a positive forwards view point of United.

We all know United are not in a good place at the moment. In my opinion they look like they are about as far away from being contenders as they have at any point since Fergie retired. That may be some recency bias there but they do look so far off.

So what needs to change? I mean within the realms of possibility at this point. The Glazers aren't going to sell any time soon so a change in ownership probably isn't realistic.

To me there needs to be a cultural reboot. Sure that's been said many times but this time it actually needs to happen and it can now happen. Ole cleared out some of the dross and now there's a real chance of the team to clear out some more. This summer guys like Pogba, Matic, Martial and Lingard likely move on. They need to start bringing through some youth as squad players and they need to sign wisely.

Who should be the next manager? I think it needs to be Ten Haag. I think he's the only one who can rebuild United using a mixture of youth and good long term signings.

They've brought in Rangnick to bring about this pressing style so they need to commit to that. That's what most of the top teams are doing and to go away from that after just 6 months would be a mistake. They have a chance to really have a cultural reboot and I think that's what they need to do.
 

SuperRash

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Do you want an answer more sophisticated than sell the lot of them and start again? :p

I am leaning towards Ten Hag over Poch because of his style of play and think he has done really good things with Ajax, especially in the CL. I have said on another thread that my preference would be Luis Enrique but the logistics of that with the WC coming up makes it unlikely for me. Whoever comes in has got an almighty task, we’ve got some very very good players in Bruno, Sancho, Varane and De Gea but beyond that, there is a lot of scratchy and average players. The positive is some good young guys coming through the youth teams but they will take time to progress, and there are no guarantees obviously with young players. Mejbri and Elanga are the next cabs off the rank though, and they both have good potential.

In a lot of ways this is the most important summer since Sir Alex left. The squad is being cut down further with Pogba and Lingard going you would suspect. Ronaldo, Cavani, Mata and Matic are potential outs along with Martial and VDB.

So the right man needs to come in obviously and a serious change of personnel is coming.
 

RichH2016

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I mean ultimately I think you guys have all said there are very few players in the squad you'd be disappointed if they sold.

Really it is De Gea, Varane, Sancho and I think a lot have said Rashford right? Oh sorry and of course Fernandes. And I mean even then DeGea has been brilliant this year and he's been a high performer mostly for the club but he's 31.

I watched the game yesterday and then the analysis on MotD was quite startling. No desire or work rate from a lot of players.
 

SuperRash

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Oh without doubt the desire, work rate and character is something this team seriously lacks. You can buy all the talent in the world but players need to fight for the cause until the very last minute.

When you have the opposition boss stating all teams have worked out that we don’t have have much desire to get back, then you know things have to change. We need characters in the dressing room to give these players an absolute rocket. Keane at times was out of line with his criticism of players but you know for sure he would be in there right now giving these guys hell. The comments yesterday from Hasenhuttl should have made them embarrassed.

I think a major problem universally in football is the ridiculous money these young guys get at an early age. I’m not saying all players are like this but a certain percentage think they’ve made it because they get paid £100k a week at 20. Is there the desire to improve?
 

boothstownred

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I do not think it is a choice of whether we need a reboot or not. Personally I think it is forced upon us. Next season, for a variety of reasons we are unlikely to have Cavani, Mata, Matic, Martial, Pogba, Greenwood, Bailly, Henderson,Jones and possibly Ronaldo. That is ten players out of the squad that, if we are lucky would bring in £50m. That is a lot of players to replace bringing in very little revenue. We would probably need to bring in a minimum of 5 QUALITY players and pad out the squad with returning loanees.
 

jsp

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The owners.

rot starts at the top until they start demanding the best and trophies not just dividends nothing will change.

Hopefully some change has already started with the new football directors and Woodward out the door but the club has to start behaving like a football club again rather than a media company and make every decision based around football success we aren’t going to see progress.

it kills me but that’s the truth as long as they are here we are screwed.
 

RichH2016

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The United that Fergie built (and their history) was a club built on youth. Fergie was really good at spotting talent and bringing those players to united and then developing them. He didn't buy the finished article very often and that's how they built their team. I think they need to go back to that.
 
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I’m with JSP. The problem is at the top. The GlazerScheisters no nothing about football yet feel compelled to interfere in their investment, usually indirectly via the Chief Exec. It’s their interfering that is killing us.

Footballers now have two values. Firstly, their value on the pitch, in training and in the dressing room. Secondly, their media value. Social media traffic and merchandise sales. They are getting involved because of the latter.

A Manager is only interested in the former, the board the latter. Woodward killed so many good transfers. Grealish being the stand out one for me. He believed he had a done deal with us. The manager wanted him, terms discussed and agreed and Grealish believed he was joining us. But Woodward and the Glazers hummed and ah’d as to whether they would make money from him. So Grealish felt United(Woodward) were’t interested so he signed a fresh contract with Villa. He is not the only example.

They stopped the exit of Pogba and Martial. Even though Managers said get rid and that they were damaging the team and club, because Glazers wanted a return on their investment. It’s rumoured one of the Glazers thinks Martial is the next Pele ffs.

They don’t see Managers as Club Managers, they see them purely as Coaches who are subject to the Boards instructions and the Boards decisions. This is why our good players are fed up now. Bad players still play because the club have paid for them and want a return, no matter what the impact on the pitch. They know there is no consequences for bad performances so they think, what’s the point. This is why good players don’t want to come to the club anymore.

Bellingham was recently asked, by a fan, are you coming to United. His response was a genuine snort of derision and “no” and Bellingham walked away laughing.

It hurts to say this. It hurts to watch six painful draws and the painful losses but this isn’t go to change this season or next. It won’t change as long as the Glazers keep interfering. All Managers here will face the same problem.
 

boothstownred

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I think there are few genuine United fans that don't think the owners are the main problem. However they are the owners and I don't see how they get rid of them, until they start losing money
 
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I agree Boothstown. We have to accept they do own the club. We just need them to stop interfering and micro-managing the club. This is the equivalent of them buying an airline and then telling the pilots how to fly. We are crashing every week.

They are not experts in football. They hire experts in football and they need to let those experts do their jobs.
 

jsp

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I agree Boothstown. We have to accept they do own the club. We just need them to stop interfering and micro-managing the club. This is the equivalent of them buying an airline and then telling the pilots how to fly. We are crashing every week.

They are not experts in football. They hire experts in football and they need to let those experts do their jobs.

id say it’s more like buying an airline but never replacing or upgrading your fleet instead paying yourself healthy dividends eventually over time your planes are out dated and your rivals start taking your business.

The lack of direction pains me because Woodward wasn’t sacked for poor performance he resigned because he couldn’t hack it anymore.

On and off the pitch the club are regressing and falling behind. Our stadium and facilities have seen very little investment in a decade, our commercial growth has hit a ceiling and on the pitch it’s quite clear any residual knowledge from the Fergie era is gone.
 

RichH2016

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I think the biggest issue the United may face in the next few years is that they aren't going to have that same pull they once did. Like even in the first few years after Fergie I think they still had that pull. And look don't get me wrong they still will to some extent but not the same. I think Liverpool lost that too until the last few years.
 

SuperRash

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The United that Fergie built (and their history) was a club built on youth. Fergie was really good at spotting talent and bringing those players to united and then developing them. He didn't buy the finished article very often and that's how they built their team. I think they need to go back to that.
I guess we have signed a few young guys (Pellistri and Diallo) the last couple of years that fit that Fergie mould. So there is still that idea floating around the place but with moneybags City who will always buy the best, it’s hard to get on board with the idea of buying ‘work in progress’ players. It’s not really worked buying ready made guys, so I definitely get onboard with buying based on promise but we need to have a core of ready made players coming in.

Rice would be a very Fergie-esque signing, similar to buying in someone like Carrick.
 

RichH2016

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Rice would be a very Fergie-esque signing, similar to buying in someone like Carrick.
Agreed. I think what Fergie did so well was he bought PL proven players. Now perhaps that hindered them slightly in the CL but it was very successful in the PL.
 

jsp

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I think it was a different time for most of the Fergie era Utd were able to take top players off rivals like Bayern do now weaken your rivals while you strengthen yourself.

Buying domestically now is much harder and where Utd have lost their edge is not seeing the smart deals you can even look at Maguire no matter what you think of him now Utd under Fergie probably grab him straight from Hull and save a fortune like Liverpool did with Robertson.

Like or not City have knocked us off our perch domestically top players now will almost always chose them over us
 

Justin Cider

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The fans expectations for starters. It's Man City and Liverpool's turn at the moment but it won't last forever, honest.
 

jsp

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The fans expectations for starters. It's Man City and Liverpool's turn at the moment but it won't last forever, honest.

They've had a decade though there needs to be some sort of signal of a proper corner being turned.

We can't keep having these massive crashes every 3 seasons where we have to rip up the whole plan and start again.

Let's hope that these new directors will bring a more sustainable building process and my god they need to secure a top class manager.
 

Justin Cider

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They've had a decade though there needs to be some sort of signal of a proper corner being turned.

We can't keep having these massive crashes every 3 seasons where we have to rip up the whole plan and start again.

Let's hope that these new directors will bring a more sustainable building process and my god they need to secure a top class manager.

If we'd given David Moyes, LvG and Ole more time, as we should've, we wouldn't need to start from scratch every 3 years
 

Mr C

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we need to target the right players. Too many times we have bough badly.

Maguire, Fred and Ronaldo we bought because we thought City were after them.

We need to stop this big money buying unless it's the right player.

We have a group of players who do not have the mental strength or will to play for this club. Let alone the ability.

If you're going to whine because you've not been picked, or we lost so you cant thank the fans, or you didn't get passed to. Please leave this summer.
 

Sideshow Bob

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The manager is the most important person at the club. Make the right appointment and the rest will fall into place, like it has for Liverpool.
 

jsp

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If we'd given David Moyes, LvG and Ole more time, as we should've, we wouldn't need to start from scratch every 3 years

Or if we'd not appointed any of them we might not have wasted 3 years each time I'd say in hindsight each one of those managers got 6 months longer than they should have had.

Time does not automatical equal success it only works if you give the right man time.

To his credit LVG at the end of his second season had something interesting going with the kids coming through I felt and replacing him with Mourinho was stupid at that point was crazy.

If you believe the rumours Woodward cost us Klopp he was interested in Utd but when he met Woodward he didn't like him and didn't think he had a clue about football and ended up at Liverpool a few years later.
 

Mr C

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Should never have gone with Moyes, and certainly should not have let him change all the backroom staff. But the one after Fergie was always going to be the fall guy. I also think they should have paid whatever to keep Gill for a year. Another poor board decision.

LVG should never have arrived, his style of football is not what United play. His Barca side were so boring to watch. This was probably the worst managerial decision and he started the ball rolling with poor buys.

Jose I kind of understand the decision, but his style was old news and the game had passed him by. He should have come instead of one of the previous two.

Ole, I always wanted him, he helped us out a huge hole and did well. I see why he got the job proper. But maybe the second contract was one too far. He couldn't seem to adapt during games to the opponants.

This is why I think the next one has to be Ten Hag. He has a specific style. But most importantly, at some stage, the board has let down every manager.

He needs to be backed, get rid of the players he doesn't want. And bring in the ones he does.
 

jsp

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At some point you can't keep blaming players and managers you have to look above that.

The people at the very top have overseen a decade of decline on the pitch by poor management decisions and poor management of the squad it has lacked any sort of long term vision.

Off the pitch they've not invested in the clubs infrastructure in a decade the stadium is falling way behind, training facilities are still very good but no longer cutting edge.

Debt still remains high we are fast approaching 20 years of their ownership and the capital debt is still massive and isn't going anywhere despite multiple share issues being carried out by the owners who've just pocketed that cash rather than invest it back into the business.

Until they start making good football decisions or appoint people who can make these good football decisions nothing will really change.
 

Justin Cider

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Or if we'd not appointed any of them we might not have wasted 3 years each time I'd say in hindsight each one of those managers got 6 months longer than they should have had.

Time does not automatical equal success it only works if you give the right man time.

To his credit LVG at the end of his second season had something interesting going with the kids coming through I felt and replacing him with Mourinho was stupid at that point was crazy.

If you believe the rumours Woodward cost us Klopp he was interested in Utd but when he met Woodward he didn't like him and didn't think he had a clue about football and ended up at Liverpool a few years later.

Ed Woodward's problem was he paid too much attention to what was being said online(a problem his predecessors never had), and i'm pretty sure if he had those 10 years back he'd have held his nerve with David Moyes knowing a major rebuild was needed, and the ones most undermining Moyes as if the job wasn't hard enough replacing the Ledge that was SAF were the senior players(and we all know who they were) who all knew they were on the way out anyway. We should have given him till at least Christmas, then made a decision. But no we(the club/Ed) humiliated the guy, as we did with LvG - then the appointment of Mourinho was driven by on-line fans though why anybody would want the eye-gouging, Doctor abusing slimeball anywhere near Old Trafford is beyond me, but hey it's all about winning for some innit?
 

jsp

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Ed Woodward's problem was he paid too much attention to what was being said online(a problem his predecessors never had), and i'm pretty sure if he had those 10 years back he'd have held his nerve with David Moyes knowing a major rebuild was needed, and the ones most undermining Moyes as if the job wasn't hard enough replacing the Ledge that was SAF were the senior players(and we all know who they were) who all knew they were on the way out anyway. We should have given him till at least Christmas, then made a decision. But no we(the club/Ed) humiliated the guy, as we did with LvG - then the appointment of Mourinho was driven by on-line fans though why anybody would want the eye-gouging, Doctor abusing slimeball anywhere near Old Trafford is beyond me, but hey it's all about winning for some innit?

I‘d like to think if he could role the clock back to 2013 the first thing he would have done was put a proper buffer in place between him and the manager. His bosses the Glazers should have had the foresight to do that but with Fergie and Gill gone they wanted to take full control of the club. A lack of a succession plan at the club is ridiculous but it shows how little interest they had in the running of the club.

Moyes life wasn’t made easy he came in with no real forward planning and the club had a disaster of a transfer window in his first summer. It was vital for him to put 3 or 4 fresh new faces in that dressing room instead he got 1 a last minute dash for Fellaini. Moyes left with 4 games remaining so he had pretty much a full season and the damage couldn’t be repaired.

LVG then gets to deal with the aftermath clearing out the squad and getting new faces in again no time to plan as he had the World Cup.

Then Mourinho

Then Ole

in 10 years through 4 managers none of them anything like the one before them and they wonder why the whole project gets scrapped every 3 years.
 

Justin Cider

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I‘d like to think if he could role the clock back to 2013 the first thing he would have done was put a proper buffer in place between him and the manager. His bosses the Glazers should have had the foresight to do that but with Fergie and Gill gone they wanted to take full control of the club. A lack of a succession plan at the club is ridiculous but it shows how little interest they had in the running of the club.

Moyes life wasn’t made easy he came in with no real forward planning and the club had a disaster of a transfer window in his first summer. It was vital for him to put 3 or 4 fresh new faces in that dressing room instead he got 1 a last minute dash for Fellaini. Moyes left with 4 games remaining so he had pretty much a full season and the damage couldn’t be repaired.

LVG then gets to deal with the aftermath clearing out the squad and getting new faces in again no time to plan as he had the World Cup.

Then Mourinho

Then Ole

in 10 years through 4 managers none of them anything like the one before them and they wonder why the whole project gets scrapped every 3 years.

Not sure about that, SAF said he had 3 more years in him then he was retiring, but then he announced his retirement inside the first year, and David Gill was already committed to taking a gig with UEFA, though he did stay on an extra year to help out. If SAF had given the club those 3 years the Glazers would have ample time to find a replacement. As it was it was rushed.

The damage could have been repaired in the Summer if he released/sold those who were pushing hardest against him, no names needed because we all know who they were, and at least some of them have had the decency since to admit they let themselves, the Manager, the club and most importantly the fans down at the time.

I've always liked van Gaal and thought he was a good appointment, yeah the World Cup didn't help with the planning for the next season but he was probably the right man at the time. Was there much planning to it probably not but then you don't usually expect to fire a Manager 9/10 months into a 6 year contract, and you can't expect Manager A, B or C to just sit around waiting to take the hot seat if the Manager in situ flops. Very few Managers are bought out of contract, and it's usually look of the draw who is available when you have a vacancy to fill.

Too much is made of the different style of Management, it's just an excuse for the players, if you are at the top of your profession you should be able to switch between formations seamlessly already and be able to take on board what the current Manager is asking of you almost instantly, it's not as though the new Manager is coming in expecting a 100/200m sprinter to suddenly start running marathons, it's a simple game.
 

jsp

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Not sure about that, SAF said he had 3 more years in him then he was retiring, but then he announced his retirement inside the first year, and David Gill was already committed to taking a gig with UEFA, though he did stay on an extra year to help out. If SAF had given the club those 3 years the Glazers would have ample time to find a replacement. As it was it was rushed.

The damage could have been repaired in the Summer if he released/sold those who were pushing hardest against him, no names needed because we all know who they were, and at least some of them have had the decency since to admit they let themselves, the Manager, the club and most importantly the fans down at the time.

I've always liked van Gaal and thought he was a good appointment, yeah the World Cup didn't help with the planning for the next season but he was probably the right man at the time. Was there much planning to it probably not but then you don't usually expect to fire a Manager 9/10 months into a 6 year contract, and you can't expect Manager A, B or C to just sit around waiting to take the hot seat if the Manager in situ flops. Very few Managers are bought out of contract, and it's usually look of the draw who is available when you have a vacancy to fill.

Too much is made of the different style of Management, it's just an excuse for the players, if you are at the top of your profession you should be able to switch between formations seamlessly already and be able to take on board what the current Manager is asking of you almost instantly, it's not as though the new Manager is coming in expecting a 100/200m sprinter to suddenly start running marathons, it's a simple game.

He was an old man the club should always have had a list on the backburner just in case things changed quickly and they did if you believe his version of events his sister in law dying meant his wife was alone and he felt it was time to put family first. Timing couldn't have been worse if i recall correctly by the time the Fergie news broke all the top guys had committed elsewhere. Mourinho was going to Chelsea, Ancelloti was going to Madrid and Guardiola was at Bayern. Utd probably didn't know where to look and have the vision to see a guy like Klopp at Dortmund.

I'm not sure if Moyes really knew who was with him and who was against him early on at Utd and he'd upset their natural order of things with all the new faces. I don't find Moyes a particularly impressive man he's a nice guy but that dressing room would have eaten him alive they were ruthless and probably not the nicest of people to be around if you weren't part of their group.

It's not the style of management it's the style of football they play. Moyes generally plays a pretty defensive aggressive counter attacking style, LVG a slow methodical passing style, Mourinho back to Moyes and Ole kind of like Mourinho but with a bit more adventure. The issue here is every manager looks at the players and goes I need to change half of these for my style to work. So LVG dismantles the Fergie/Moyes side then Mourinho dismantles the LVG side and Ole dismantles the Mourinho side. This pattern will likely repeat itself over and over again.

This doesn't happen at other clubs as the squad is the squad they pick managers to fit that squad to get the best from them. When City got Pep they got a better version of Pellegrini when Liverpool got Klopp they got a better version of Rodgers they styles didn't radically change they were just done with much better ability.
 

Mr C

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Moyes walked into a dressing room of winners as a loser. Wrong appointment.
 

Justin Cider

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He was an old man the club should always have had a list on the backburner just in case things changed quickly and they did if you believe his version of events his sister in law dying meant his wife was alone and he felt it was time to put family first. Timing couldn't have been worse if i recall correctly by the time the Fergie news broke all the top guys had committed elsewhere. Mourinho was going to Chelsea, Ancelloti was going to Madrid and Guardiola was at Bayern. Utd probably didn't know where to look and have the vision to see a guy like Klopp at Dortmund.

I'm not sure if Moyes really knew who was with him and who was against him early on at Utd and he'd upset their natural order of things with all the new faces. I don't find Moyes a particularly impressive man he's a nice guy but that dressing room would have eaten him alive they were ruthless and probably not the nicest of people to be around if you weren't part of their group.

It's not the style of management it's the style of football they play. Moyes generally plays a pretty defensive aggressive counter attacking style, LVG a slow methodical passing style, Mourinho back to Moyes and Ole kind of like Mourinho but with a bit more adventure. The issue here is every manager looks at the players and goes I need to change half of these for my style to work. So LVG dismantles the Fergie/Moyes side then Mourinho dismantles the LVG side and Ole dismantles the Mourinho side. This pattern will likely repeat itself over and over again.

This doesn't happen at other clubs as the squad is the squad they pick managers to fit that squad to get the best from them. When City got Pep they got a better version of Pellegrini when Liverpool got Klopp they got a better version of Rodgers they styles didn't radically change they were just done with much better ability.

It must have been a tough time for SAF and his wife Cathy and it's understandable he wanted to spend more time with her but he could have stayed on part-time and delegated more responsibilities to his staff, I mean the team was so well drilled he could've just turned up on matchday if he wanted.

And I think that's what he would've done initially anyway but he probably felt the club sided with Rooney once they'd committed to pay him what he'd have got at City/Chelsea when SAF knew he was done at the top level and wanted to move him on. And if SAF wants you gone you're gone. And spending more time with Cathy became a plausible excuse to bring forward his retirement.

Could be 100% wrong on that mind.

Football is a simple game, over-complicated by Managers/Players and fans making excuses for favoured Managers/Players.

And maybe i'm set in my ways but always feel the Manager should decide who he wants to sign/sell when he gets the job, and not have a squad assembled for him, moreso because there are more and more players, and usually the better ones who want to play for Manager A, C or Z, how do you sign those players for your squad because there is no guarantee his favourite Manager will get the gig in the future as not every club is as shady as City were with Pep.
 

Lordkluivert

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The first change is ETH, than i want Timber, Gvardiol, Gravenberch, Antony, Laimer in and Maguire, AWB, Pogba, Matic, Mata, Cavani, Lingard, Jones out. That will look good instantly
 

Justin Cider

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The first change is ETH, than i want Timber, Gvardiol, Gravenberch, Antony, Laimer in and Maguire, AWB, Pogba, Matic, Mata, Cavani, Lingard, Jones out. That will look good instantly

Timber: Not tall or strong enough to play CB or RB in England, CDM mmmm maybe.
Gvardiol: Not ready for the big time yet. A lot of rough edges.
Gravenberch: Bayern bound apparently.
Antony: Pacy, great to watch but a friggin Loony Tune.
Laimer: ✔️
 

Mr C

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the job gets bigger after every match. I just can't see any of these players being here in 3 years. At least I hope not.
The biggest job is going to be working out what needs doing first. Really you can only do 3 a window in my view. But this first window might be 4.

CF
CMx2
CB

there is talk of him bringing Antony, but I don't think that is one of the worst areas.

Then its

RB
LB
CB

Then

CM
LW
AM

Then buying squad players.

Out is:

Ronaldo
Maguire
Bailly
Martial
Pogba
Lingard
Matic
Mata
Greenwood
Cavani
AWB

On the verge of out is:

Rashford
Mctominay
Lindelof
Shaw
Dalot
Telles

Some of these we need to keep just on numbers.

I don't think our new manager is going to put up with too much of Bruno either, needs to get way less sloppy and hold some type of shape.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but really based on numbers, keep Fred.

Keep Sancho, Varane De Gea for now

The situation is desperate. It's going to take a big man to take on managing this lot. Dire.
 

jsp

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New guy has 3 summers to totally overhaul that squad no one is safe and no one should be.

It’ll be a case of finding those who you think you can work with and want to work with you and give it a chance.
 

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