The Sir Jim Ratcliffe Era

[IDFD]

You would expect the club have big hopes for the current academy crop following in his footsteps and making the step up.

To sell em? Mainoo and Garnacho were the stars of the previous side and are both up for sale.

 

[Matt Varnish]

None of them equate to Garnacho with perhaps the exception of Welbeck and Adnan. And I'm sure we all agreed at the time the sale of Welbeck was ridiculous and still do.

However Garnachos potential levels are miles above.

We've never sold our top youngsters. Garnacho is clearly one of those. It's a massively different situation to any this club has seen before.

That's your opinion, it's not mine, we differ, get over it

 

[Matt Varnish]

To sell em? Mainoo and Garnacho were the stars of the previous side and are both up for sale.

Again opinion, who are you to judge?
Garnacho is no Giggs, even at 20 Giggs was miles better.
Mainoo is no Scholes or Butt
Both of them are good, but neither of them are irreplaceable, and if the media is correct, that is what Amorim thinks too, whether his hand is being forced to balance the books is a different matter, but you would have thought a scenario like this would have been previously discussed, and if he hadn't of agreed to it, he wouldn't have come here.

 

[jsp]

To sell em? Mainoo and Garnacho were the stars of the previous side and are both up for sale.

Well I’m hoping they don’t sell Mainoo, I feel that would be a big mistake and is very unlikely as long as they can agree a sensible contract with him. If they can’t then they will probably have to sell him.

I don’t feel like Garnacho is being forced out either I reckon he wants out, doesn’t look like there’s much resistance from his side. A couple more good seasons and he'd have been trying to get a move to Madrid anyway. That always felt like the end goal for him never had him down as a Utd for life player.

By the time the next crop are ready to push their way into the first team picture hopefully things have settled down and we won’t need to be selling off players to replenish the first team.

 

[IDFD]

Again opinion, who are you to judge?
Garnacho is no Giggs, even at 20 Giggs was miles better.
Mainoo is no Scholes or Butt
Both of them are good, but neither of them are irreplaceable, and if the media is correct, that is what Amorim thinks too, whether his hand is being forced to balance the books is a different matter, but you would have thought a scenario like this would have been previously discussed, and if he hadn't of agreed to it, he wouldn't have come here.

I highly doubt it was discussed regarding Mainoo and Garnacho being sold before he joined. We know getting him in wasn't thought about correctly or done well. It's why ETH got another contract and we know Amorim didn't want to join when he did but we given a now or never ultimatum.

 

[IDFD]

Again opinion, who are you to judge?
Garnacho is no Giggs, even at 20 Giggs was miles better.
Mainoo is no Scholes or Butt
Both of them are good, but neither of them are irreplaceable, and if the media is correct, that is what Amorim thinks too, whether his hand is being forced to balance the books is a different matter, but you would have thought a scenario like this would have been previously discussed, and if he hadn't of agreed to it, he wouldn't have come here.

Whose opinion? Who are you to judge?

I never said either them were them. (Though I do think Garnacho has the ability to go on to amazing things and be one of the best in the world). I said they were the stars of the previous youth team. (The FA Cup winning one)

They've also both came in to the side look the they are a level above the majority of the 11 in the side and got their international tournament debuts at very young ages at very good international clubs.

This idea they aren't top youngsters is drivel. Not in my opinion but in the opinion of the footballing world. Both finished in the top 10 for the best youngsters in the world last seasons 4 months ago.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Whose opinion? Who are you to judge?

I never said either them were them. (Though I do think Garnacho has the ability to go on to amazing things and be one of the best in the world). I said they were the stars of the previous youth team. (The FA Cup winning one)

They've also both came in to the side look the they are a level above the majority of the 11 in the side and got their international tournament debuts at very young ages at very good international clubs.

This idea they aren't top youngsters is drivel. Not in my opinion but in the opinion of the footballing world. Both finished in the top 10 for the best youngsters in the world last seasons 4 months ago.

If you think Garnacho will spend his whole career at United you are more naive than I think you are.
He's not fighting this transfer, he actually wants to go, it proves to (a lot of) us that his heart is not in this team, and United are merely a stepping stone to his boyhood dream to play for Real ( where have I heard that before?).
Top youngsters, how is it that Chelsea are the only prem club chasing Garnacho, if he was that good all of the top clubs in the Prem who could afford him would be chasing him, Why aren't the top clubs in Europe chasing him? Real, Barcelona, PSG not a sniff, why?

 

[IDFD]

If you think Garnacho will spend his whole career at United you are more naive than I think you are.
He's not fighting this transfer, he actually wants to go, it proves to (a lot of) us that his heart is not in this team, and United are merely a stepping stone to his boyhood dream to play for Real ( where have I heard that before?).
Top youngsters, how is it that Chelsea are the only prem club chasing Garnacho, if he was that good all of the top clubs in the Prem who could afford him would be chasing him, Why aren't the top clubs in Europe chasing him? Real, Barcelona, PSG not a sniff, why?

I'm sure even you have the ability to know off the top of your head the players these 3 teams have in his position.

However PSG a top European club?

Do you see the irony that the only manager to be successful with a 3-4-3 Formation in the prem is the manager that is demanding his team get in Garnacho?

The same manager that manages the team currently top of Seria A and the club won Seria A a season ago. Hardly a nothing club that is after him and he will see it as an upwards move with the position we are in and it should probably be acknowledged as so.

 

[O-Dog]

Isn't all this beside the point? We have to comply with PSR rules and we need to bring in better players. Given our financial situation, it makes sense to sell a player we didn't sign for a stack of money.

We all know who's to blame for our financial woes.

 

[Mr C]

None of them equate to Garnacho with perhaps the exception of Welbeck and Adnan. And I'm sure we all agreed at the time the sale of Welbeck was ridiculous and still do.

However Garnachos potential levels are miles above.

We've never sold our top youngsters. Garnacho is clearly one of those. It's a massively different situation to any this club has seen before.

Isn't all this beside the point? We have to comply with PSR rules and we need to bring in better players. Given our financial situation, it makes sense to sell a player we didn't sign for a stack of money.

We all know who's to blame for our financial woes.

Quite O-dog, @IDFD how do you propose we gather the needed funds to upgrade the squad?

I don't think the manager wants Garnacho out, he's still picking him. It's either the board or the player that are doing that. I guess they thought they could sell Antony and Cas etc, but of course they can't. So they have to sell somebody.

I don't think Mainoo will be sold, that sounds like contract stuff.

I like Garnacho, but he's not a next level player. he looks better because all you need to do to stand out in this team is try.

 

[JammyRed]

Quite O-dog, @IDFD how do you propose we gather the needed funds to upgrade the squad?

I don't think the manager wants Garnacho out, he's still picking him. It's either the board or the player that are doing that. I guess they thought they could sell Antony and Cas etc, but of course they can't. So they have to sell somebody.

I don't think Mainoo will be sold, that sounds like contract stuff.

I like Garnacho, but he;s not a next level player. he looks better becasue all you need to do to stand out in this team is try

Absolutely spot on its not rocket science we have too many past it or lazy arsed players we get out run in practically every game.
The times the opposition beat us to the ball in what at first looks like a 50/50 ball is ridiculous especially in our pedestrian midfield, get some energy in that midfield and things will change dramatically but at the moment we dont have the right players.

 

[SuperRash]

Isn't all this beside the point? We have to comply with PSR rules and we need to bring in better players. Given our financial situation, it makes sense to sell a player we didn't sign for a stack of money.

We all know who's to blame for our financial woes.

Hey hey stop being so rational! We don’t like that around here!

 

[Sideshow Bob]

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[IDFD]

Quite O-dog, @IDFD how do you propose we gather the needed funds to upgrade the squad?

I don't think the manager wants Garnacho out, he's still picking him. It's either the board or the player that are doing that. I guess they thought they could sell Antony and Cas etc, but of course they can't. So they have to sell somebody.

I don't think Mainoo will be sold, that sounds like contract stuff.

I like Garnacho, but he's not a next level player. he looks better because all you need to do to stand out in this team is try.

This sudden playing down of Garnacho from United fans is highly amusing. Yes let's pretend he's suddenly not a very promising youngster. Conte must be bloody foolish to want him. Someone should let him know Garnacho isn't the player he thinks he is.

As for raising funds if the board have really put us that up against it for the PSR rules then it's another shocker that's on them but we were told last year that it shouldn't be an issue this year with the purchases that would be dropping off. And again when ETH didn't want to sell McTominay we were told it would safeguard us against any PSR worries. But you offer to cover the cost of 50% of Rashfords wages and get a decent fee in for him who the club and player obviously need to go seperate ways.

They should do a better job of removing the actual dead wood in the side instead of constantly screwing that up by giving them longer contracts. The likes of Lindelof.

Paying more for Antony and Mount that we will get for Garnacho highlights everything that is wrong with this club.

 

[Mr C]

Lets not forget it was ETH who wanted Mount and Antony

Who's playing down Garnacho? at the moment it's just potential, and he's not going to reach that at Man Utd any longer.

It's irreleant you hate Amorim and want him to fail and want ETH back. We are where we are.

It sounds like you want to wait 2 seasons for this to fail by doing anything and saying anything to scupper the manager and harp on about a squad who had their chance and proved deficient. Rather than give the guy a fair crack.

We need money in, Garnacho either wants out or is deemed not suitable, so it's perfect business strength to sell under either of those scenarios. We've sold many a player I haven't wanted to sell in the past.

It doesn't matter if the PSR issues are a shocker. They are a fact. Nobody is buying the players we want to sell because they are crap, see Antony and Mount.

You haven't actually come up with a solution.

At some point you need to draw a line under the past, and try and move forward. We all knew it would be painful. But we are not going to get rid of the players we all know we need to get rid off. Doesn't matter the Glazers/ETH/Ole/LVG/Jose etc all bought a load of duds and emptied the bank.

We are where we are, if we have to sell Garnacho to move forward, then thats what we need to do. It's not like he's a superstar, he's just a good young player with talent. There are plenty of those in the league.

Maybe if our last coach got us into the CL rather than make a mess of it, we wouldn't be here.

 

[IDFD]

Find it amusing for you to say the above. I thought this whole forum was all about dragging down the manager. I've seen it happen time and time again. Now I call out the poorest of managers we've had post Ferguson (statstically that cannot be argued) and the selling of our top youngsters we should all be understanding.

I don't hate Amorim. I'd love him to succeed. But it's clear he needs to adapt and get points on the board and start with his 3-4-3 experiment next season. You say he's not got the players he needs for the system he wants. Why can you see that and not him?

You kept saying one thing under ETH. A club like Madrid or Barca would have moved him on already. What would they be thinking right now?

It takes some bad start for Amorim to already be 5th favourite to be the next manager to lose his job. I think you're ignoring just how bad it's been. I'd love to see him turning it around. But at the moment I'm seeing a manager that looks like he's made the step up to the next level far too quickly and is out of his depth.

I feel and fear we needed a Tuchel or Conte and not an Amorim or McKenna (Who I wanted)

 

[Mr C]

I have faith, it's a repeat of what happended at Sporting. He's taking over a crisis club

 

[SuperRash]

This sudden playing down of Garnacho from United fans is highly amusing. Yes let's pretend he's suddenly not a very promising youngster. Conte must be bloody foolish to want him. Someone should let him know Garnacho isn't the player he thinks he is.

As for raising funds if the board have really put us that up against it for the PSR rules then it's another shocker that's on them but we were told last year that it shouldn't be an issue this year with the purchases that would be dropping off. And again when ETH didn't want to sell McTominay we were told it would safeguard us against any PSR worries. But you offer to cover the cost of 50% of Rashfords wages and get a decent fee in for him who the club and player obviously need to go seperate ways.

They should do a better job of removing the actual dead wood in the side instead of constantly screwing that up by giving them longer contracts. The likes of Lindelof.

Paying more for Antony and Mount that we will get for Garnacho highlights everything that is wrong with this club.

I guess just because the McT deal helped safeguard us from PSR issues, that didn’t necessarily mean we would suddenly have a boat load of cash to spend. And that’s exactly what we need to right the wrongs of previous managers/leadership.

Would you be ultimately happy if we sold Garnacho and managed to bring in a few players to fit the system if that ultimately started us on the journey to some kind of comeback? I think that’s what people are saying when they are understanding of why he could be sold. It’s not because he isn’t liked or rated, it’s because of the bigger picture.

 

[IDFD]

I have faith, it's a repeat of what happended at Sporting. He's taking over a crisis club

Sporting are fundamentally very small scale in a much less competitive league to the job on now. Its a massive step up. And was it really this bad at Sporting?

 

[IDFD]

Would you be ultimately happy if we sold Garnacho and managed to bring in a few players to fit the system if that ultimately started us on the journey to some kind of comeback? I think that’s what people are saying when they are understanding of why he could be sold. It’s not because he isn’t liked or rated, it’s because of the bigger picture.

I'd be happy to see the club performing better.

I don't think getting rid of your best young players is ever part of the bigger picture. I think it's very similar to the Greenwood (for differing reasons that had to happen) picture where we'll be sitting here in 2 years time thinking we could really do we a player like him.

Fundamentally though I believe it goes against the ethos of Manchester United. Who we are (or should be) as a club.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Find it amusing for you to say the above. I thought this whole forum was all about dragging down the manager. I've seen it happen time and time again. Now I call out the poorest of managers we've had post Ferguson (statstically that cannot be argued) and the selling of our top youngsters we should all be understanding.

I don't hate Amorim. I'd love him to succeed. But it's clear he needs to adapt and get points on the board and start with his 3-4-3 experiment next season. You say he's not got the players he needs for the system he wants. Why can you see that and not him?

You kept saying one thing under ETH. A club like Madrid or Barca would have moved him on already. What would they be thinking right now?

It takes some bad start for Amorim to already be 5th favourite to be the next manager to lose his job. I think you're ignoring just how bad it's been. I'd love to see him turning it around. But at the moment I'm seeing a manager that looks like he's made the step up to the next level far too quickly and is out of his depth.

I feel and fear we needed a Tuchel or Conte and not an Amorim or McKenna (Who I wanted)

I find it amusing that you are writing of Amorim after about 10 weeks, but in another thread you were berating me for saying that if some doesn't perform they should be given chance after chance.
You say Amorim is out of his depth, then you say you wanted Mckenna who according to you, would also be out of his depth, if you didn't contradict yourself every time you posted some thing, you would come across as more credible.
We spoke to Tuchel and he turned us for England!! England FFS, the biggest underachievers ever!

You make me laugh.
You are one of two options.
A troll or a WUM, which one are you?

 

[Matt Varnish]

All this may turn out to be hypothetical anyway, reports coming from Italy suggest that Napoli are not willing to meet United's valuation of Garnacho, and add to that Lecce seem to be sticking for around €40m for Dorgu.
Is our transfer window falling apart with only 8 days left.

 

[IDFD]

I find it amusing that you are writing of Amorim after about 10 weeks, but in another thread you were berating me for saying that if some doesn't perform they should be given chance after chance.
You say Amorim is out of his depth, then you say you wanted Mckenna who according to you, would also be out of his depth, if you didn't contradict yourself every time you posted some thing, you would come across as more credible.
We spoke to Tuchel and he turned us for England!! England FFS, the biggest underachievers ever!

You make me laugh.
You are one of two options.
A troll or a WUM, which one are you?

I said with hindsight Mckenna would be the wrong choice, after seeing Amorim I think we needed someone with more experience at the big stage and not another experiment. Quite clear what I've said with no contradiction.

A troll and wum are one of the same aren't they?

Tuchel gave his reasoning for turning us down. He wanted more power over transfers. Do you blame him? Probably doesn't want players sold from under him to bring in players he doesn't want.

 

[Matt Varnish]

I said with hindsight Mckenna would be the wrong choice, after seeing Amorim I think we needed someone with more experience at the big stage and not another experiment. Quite clear what I've said with no contradiction.

A troll and wum are one of the same aren't they?

Tuchel gave his reasoning for turning us down. He wanted more power over transfers. Do you blame him? Probably doesn't want players sold from under him to bring in players he doesn't want.

No they are not.

Ah that wonderful human trait all humans have "hindsight" yeah call it that.
You wanted a manager from the Championship, but now you've seen how out of depth he is, you've suddenly changed your mind and keep on about keeping ETH, who it would appear was also out of his depth.
Tell us all, where do you think we would be in the league on the form that we had under ETH, and don't forget to feed the algorithm that we were actually getting worse not better under him?
Are you so naive to think that this same bunch of players would suddenly have become a Liverpool and go on a winning streak to take us itno Europe next season?
Surely you can't even consider that would have happened?

Lets see how Tuchel does with England, no transfers to worry about there, his only concern will be underperforming ego's, all he did was admit he wasn't up to the challenge at United, and came up with the best excuse he could.
I can bet managing England will cause more damage to his career than managing United ever will.

 

[jsp]

Had Ten Hag stayed I reckon we’d be about where we are now.

The squad we started the season with left Ten Hag with gaps that left his system flawed and lacking quality and depth in key areas. It needed a lot of unknowns to come good and they haven’t.

Changing the manager and system mid season was always a gamble. Most would expect some short term pain for long term gain.

However, I doubt people would expect it to be so bad I certainly didn’t see it being this grim.

It can’t really carry on for the rest of the season but with these players it will as he’s got to many who can’t do what he needs.

 

[IDFD]

You wanted a manager from the Championship, but now you've seen how out of depth he is, you've suddenly changed your mind and keep on about keeping ETH, who it would appear was also out of his depth.

Eh? I at no point ever wanted ETH gone what are you on about? I've never in my life wanted a manager sacked (There are people on here i've been chatting to for 19 years that can vouch for that). I actually just want most of you to be honest about how shit it is now because all you ever heard on here was how shit we were even after a win. And I want that same brutal honesty from the posters who are now claiming it's all rosey. I hope you're all right and Amorim turns it around. I just don't think this formation will work in this country to be successful with it. We end up playing 5 at the back and creating nothing and inviting pressure.

I said when he was sacked I wanted McKenna get someone in that knows the club. Has worked with many of the players before and has done a great job.

However with the way these players have performed under Amorim and Amorims awful performance himself I think it's been made clear the club needed a strong manager.

However it was never continuing the way it was going the club was never going to keep creating top two amount of chances (Only Liverpool had a better xg than us when ETH was sacked) and keep on missing them. The results didn't reflect the performances and too many got stuck on their narrative and failed to actually watch the games in front of them.

 

[IDFD]

And you can go back and check also when they were talking about Amorim I said you've got to either give him the job for 10 years or when it isn't working because it won't pull the plug very quickly so the club isn't married to a formation that doesn't suit the league and then have to spend even more money getting back to the point where we can play a different formation.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Eh? I at no point ever wanted ETH gone what are you on about? I've never in my life wanted a manager sacked (There are people on here i've been chatting to for 19 years that can vouch for that). I actually just want most of you to be honest about how shit it is now because all you ever heard on here was how shit we were even after a win. And I want that same brutal honesty from the posters who are now claiming it's all rosey. I hope you're all right and Amorim turns it around. I just don't think this formation will work in this country to be successful with it. We end up playing 5 at the back and creating nothing and inviting pressure.

I said when he was sacked I wanted McKenna get someone in that knows the club. Has worked with many of the players before and has done a great job.

However with the way these players have performed under Amorim and Amorims awful performance himself I think it's been made clear the club needed a strong manager.

However it was never continuing the way it was going the club was never going to keep creating top two amount of chances (Only Liverpool had a better xg than us when ETH was sacked) and keep on missing them. The results didn't reflect the performances and too many got stuck on their narrative and failed to actually watch the games in front of them.

And you can go back and check also when they were talking about Amorim I said you've got to either give him the job for 10 years or when it isn't working because it won't pull the plug very quickly so the club isn't married to a formation that doesn't suit the league and then have to spend even more money getting back to the point where we can play a different formation.

Oh heck we are in to the XG conundrum now.
Do you actually read what you have posted BEFORE hitting the "post reply" button?

I'm not claiming it's rosy, I've never said that, what I have said is that I am willing to give him time, ten weeks with players he did not have a say in buying is not enough time.
Asking these players to adapt to system when there are no prolonged training periods because of fixtures, is also working against him.
Having to deal with the internal issues he's had to with Rashford has also been difficult for him.
I believe in the way he handled Rashford, the media, and other things that he is a strong manager, and he will get stronger, if he is allowed to see his plan through.

 

[IDFD]

Oh heck we are in to the XG conundrum now.
Do you actually read what you have posted BEFORE hitting the "post reply" button?

I'm not claiming it's rosy, I've never said that, what I have said is that I am willing to give him time, ten weeks with players he did not have a say in buying is not enough time.
Asking these players to adapt to system when there are no prolonged training periods because of fixtures, is also working against him.
Having to deal with the internal issues he's had to with Rashford has also been difficult for him.
I believe in the way he handled Rashford, the media, and other things that he is a strong manager, and he will get stronger, if he is allowed to see his plan through.

Which is why managers adapt and don't just blindly continuing to do the same thing regardless of what they believe.

Conte won the league with Chelsea using the 3-4-3 because he realised his players couldn't play the way he wanted to. You don't just put your blinkers on and carry on making the same mistakes. However the following season the formation was quickly found out and he found himself sacked.

What I've said makes complete sense if you dont like the xg situation then fair enough (however its got nothing to do with anything i said not making sense) but we missed 4 open goals it was unprecedented how ridiculous our finishing was in the open 8 games of the season and wasn't going to continue like that.

But unlike now at least we were actually creating those chances.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Which is why managers adapt and don't just blindly continuing to do the same thing regardless of what they believe.

Conte won the league with Chelsea using the 3-4-3 because he realised his players couldn't play the way he wanted to. You don't just put your blinkers on and carry on making the same mistakes. However the following season the formation was quickly found out and he found himself sacked.

That argument would be valid, if the previous system was working, but it wasn't, which is why ETH was sacked, because his system didn't work either.
"Conte won the league with Chelsea using the 3-4-3 because he realised his players couldn't play the way he wanted to"
Have to laugh at that He bought 14, yes 14 players, at the time that was a whole matchday squad!

 

[jsp]

The story with Conte at Chelsea was he wanted them to switch to 3-5-2 in the summer but the players had been playing 4-2-3-1 for a while and didn’t want to change.

He tried the 4-2-3-1 but after a heavy defeat at Arsenal he told them he had tried it their way now they had to try it his way. Rather than use the 3-5-2 he’d used at Juve he used 3-4-3.

Conte is not a man who’s wed to 1 way of playing though.

Amorim has been very clear that his system is a non-negotiable. Utd knew that going in with him so they’ve got to go all in on the plan and hope that it works out.

Go in half arsed and we will get half arsed results. The execs now need to get the best players we can find for his ideas to work.

 

[Matt Varnish]

The story with Conte at Chelsea was he wanted them to switch to 3-5-2 in the summer but the players had been playing 4-2-3-1 for a while and didn’t want to change.

He tried the 4-2-3-1 but after a heavy defeat at Arsenal he told them he had tried it their way now they had to try it his way. Rather than use the 3-5-2 he’d used at Juve he used 3-4-3.

Conte is not a man who’s wed to 1 way of playing though.

Amorim has been very clear that his system is a non-negotiable. Utd knew that going in with him so they’ve got to go all in on the plan and hope that it works out.

Go in half arsed and we will get half arsed results. The execs now need to get the best players we can find for his ideas to work.

I think a few on here are missing this, INEOS did not walk into this appointment with blinkered vision, he is their "chosen" man, they have to back him and go in balls deep, if they don't they will end up taking the rap.

 

[jsp]

I think a few on here are missing this, INEOS did not walk into this appointment with blinkered vision, he is their "chosen" man, they have to back him and go in balls deep, if they don't they will end up taking the rap.

Yep they’ve pinned their credibility on this change working.

In other more serious news the club have basically admitted that our finances are a mess and the current owners will not be paying for their mistakes. Fans will be picking up the bill and it looks like another rise in ticket prices is only round the corner.

No european football next season means the budget for Amorim’s rebuild is going to be pretty limited unless we make some big sales.

 

[croady26]

Yep they’ve pinned their credibility on this change working.

In other more serious news the club have basically admitted that our finances are a mess and the current owners will not be paying for their mistakes. Fans will be picking up the bill and it looks like another rise in ticket prices is only round the corner.

No european football next season means the budget for Amorim’s rebuild is going to be pretty limited unless we make some big sales.

Yeah that debt is absolutely strangling us, don't think Ratcliffe has any intention of clearing it. Maybe our value tanks a bit and bring interested parties to the table but doubt it.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Just in case any of you are still thinking the club isn't a financial mess on the verge of imploding

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