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Their proposal means all processing stops. So the situation will get worse because they can't "send them back" because they have agreements. They'll be loads if immigrants not getting processed, so they can't work to contribute to the economy
They are hoping people will just stop trying, that's what the minister said
Even Ken Clarke said it won't work
And we don't need an influx of cnuts like this on our streets either
 
Other issues we currently face as a country

NHS waiting times are higher than ever people are dying unnecessarily because our emergency services cannot reach them in time to save them or they can’t get appointments quick enough to diagnose issues. current estimates believe it’s around 500 people a week dying because our health service is so poor.
Teachers are striking because they’re being asked to do more with less every year, people aren’t going into it meaning our future generations education is going to be worse not better.
The police are facing multiple scandals that question their safety and ethics.
Train operating companies are pushing for reduced safety standards to increase profits. If you want to see what that leads to have a look at the recent derailments in the US. Let alone dealing with the issue where we’ve sold our train operating to private firms who already make fortunes and charge outrageous prices.
Public transport in general is an absolute shambles in this country.
There is currently a war in Ukraine.
Country is in recession and struggling post Brexit/Covid to deliver growth and the high paying jobs people were promised.
Businesses are going to the wall every week as they can’t cope with rising energy costs/inflation.
We have massive skills shortages across a number of industries because we haven’t trained anywhere near enough people to plug gaps left by foreign labour.
Brexit has yet to really deliver any clear winners pretty much every industry from farming, fishing, construction, finance, hospitality, entertainment has been a loser.
Non Dom tax status for the wealthy who get to live here with all the benefits but don’t pay their fair share.
Corrupted politicians who have clearly lined their pockets and others through Covid. There needs to be a major clawback from companies that profiteered from PPE contracts and those who awarded them to friends need to be sent to prison.
Our former PM seems to think it’s ok to nominate his dad for a knighthood
 
@RVN @jsp why do both of you say there are more important things to be dealt with presently? Did you not read what I wrote in my previous post? "there are bodies floating in the sea's".
The boats from Europe to Britain do indeed need to be stopped. Geography dictates they will land in Europe and when they do they need to be processed and assessed for asylum fairly and squarely. Britain needs to be open to accepting a fair share of those granted asylum and probably share cost of such processing etc..
The Rwanda solution in is current state is disgraceful, however it could be feasible as an optional proposal to those who's asylum application is refused. Should such people be fearing persecution in their homeland why would they refuse free passage to a country in which they can live safely?
We cannot just hold the door open to all and sundry can we?
As much as I want this government out! I will not use matters as important as this to attack them.
What is it you want? as you appear to just be attacking any proposed action on illegal immigration, not specific elements of the policy. More important things to be dealing with indeed!!

How does this policy stop them? Our own government says it won’t stand up to legal challenge, to me that means it’s back to the drawing board. This policy is not designed to smash the smuggling gangs to pieces it’s designed to discourage people from using them. I suspect these gangs will continue to smuggle people across the channels because they’ll claim they can beat the border police then make sure you are looked after when you arrive. Desperate people will always be vulnerable to criminal gangs who promise them a way out.

Why not invest money on boots on the ground in France to stop these boats from even making it into the water? France have said they are willing to work with us to stop this as it does need to stop.

By leaving the EU we’ve left a very strong seat at the table for these discussions on policies. They will now set policy without us.

If Rwanda want people to go there as immigrants because of labour shortages they should be encouraging people to come directly and legally. The current policy of taking people who’ve risked life to get here and shipping them off to a country they didn’t choose just sits wrong with me. Do these people know Rwanda is safe? Is Rwanda actually safe? 30 years ago there was a genocide in Rwanda during a civil war. There is currently unfixed term times for the president who is elected but we’ve seen how removing fixed term limits for positions of power in new democracies can quickly turn into dictatorships. In the last election the current president got 99% of the democratic vote that seems odd wouldn’t you agree?

As for the specifics of the policy I have issues with automatic removal and the permanent ban. Each case should be judged on a case by case basis. You should arrive with documents that can be checked and vetted and there should be a high bar for those claiming asylum to prove that returning home isn’t safe. We should have a well funded department that can process these claims quickly and fairly and take action. For years this department has been cut meaning there’s a huge backlog that they are struggling to clear meaning we are spending £6-7m a week on hotels to house asylum seekers while claims are processed.
 
Other issues we currently face as a country

NHS waiting times are higher than ever people are dying unnecessarily because our emergency services cannot reach them in time to save them or they can’t get appointments quick enough to diagnose issues. current estimates believe it’s around 500 people a week dying because our health service is so poor.
Teachers are striking because they’re being asked to do more with less every year, people aren’t going into it meaning our future generations education is going to be worse not better.
The police are facing multiple scandals that question their safety and ethics.
Train operating companies are pushing for reduced safety standards to increase profits. If you want to see what that leads to have a look at the recent derailments in the US. Let alone dealing with the issue where we’ve sold our train operating to private firms who already make fortunes and charge outrageous prices.
Public transport in general is an absolute shambles in this country.
There is currently a war in Ukraine.
Country is in recession and struggling post Brexit/Covid to deliver growth and the high paying jobs people were promised.
Businesses are going to the wall every week as they can’t cope with rising energy costs/inflation.
We have massive skills shortages across a number of industries because we haven’t trained anywhere near enough people to plug gaps left by foreign labour.
Brexit has yet to really deliver any clear winners pretty much every industry from farming, fishing, construction, finance, hospitality, entertainment has been a loser.
Non Dom tax status for the wealthy who get to live here with all the benefits but don’t pay their fair share.
Corrupted politicians who have clearly lined their pockets and others through Covid. There needs to be a major clawback from companies that profiteered from PPE contracts and those who awarded them to friends need to be sent to prison.
Our former PM seems to think it’s ok to nominate his dad for a knighthood
All of these are good points and exactly why this government has to go. Doesn't mean we put "bodies floating in the sea's to one side.

And, a point I am making here is - The government and the BBC v Good Two Shoes Lineker. It is easy to take a lop sided and biased view. Something needs to be done about the boats.
 
It is also doesn't mean the governments plans are workable
It's right people call it out for what it is.

I don't think lineker said we should do nothing about the boats.
 
Why not invest money on boots on the ground in France to stop these boats from even making it into the water? France have said they are willing to work with us to stop this as it does need to stop.
Now our making some sense, but is that not what this is all about?
Britain is to pay France 500 million to stop the boats. Stopping the boats I would say is Goody Two Shoes real issue!
 
It is also doesn't mean the governments plans are workable
It's right people call it out for what it is.

I don't think lineker said we should do nothing about the boats.
Do we actually know what Goody Two Shoes issue actually is? Are you saying it is simply the language being used?
 
All of these are good points and exactly why this government has to go. Doesn't mean we put "bodies floating in the sea's to one side.

And, a point I am making here is - The government and the BBC v Good Two Shoes Lineker. It is easy to take a lop sided and biased view. Something needs to be done about the boats.

Yes something needs to be done about the boats but I would target those organising the boats not punish the desperate people who are travelling in them.

Lineker clearly has a view on this which he’s made public through his social media. His tweet was pretty clear he thinks this particular policy is cruel and he thinks the language is dangerous. He has not said we should just open our borders and let everyone in nor has he said we should just let people smugglers do whatever they want.

Giving him a silly nick name isn’t really going to lead to great debate is it I’m not going to start rolling out Cruella Braverman or Jeremy C… (I’ll leave you to fill the gap in on that one). Resorting to name calling in a debate is normally the tactic of someone who’s losing the moral high ground it’s why someone like Trump was so lethal in TV debates.
 
Yes something needs to be done about the boats but I would target those organising the boats not punish the desperate people who are travelling in them.

Lineker clearly has a view on this which he’s made public through his social media. His tweet was pretty clear he thinks this particular policy is cruel and he thinks the language is dangerous. He has not said we should just open our borders and let everyone in nor has he said we should just let people smugglers do whatever they want.

Giving him a silly nick name isn’t really going to lead to great debate is it I’m not going to start rolling out Cruella Braverman or Jeremy C… (I’ll leave you to fill the gap in on that one). Resorting to name calling in a debate is normally the tactic of someone who’s losing the moral high ground it’s why someone like Trump was so lethal in TV debates.
No your wrong actually. I have been using that term to highlight the ease of which some jump on a bandwagon because of the squeaky clean image of Lineker v the bbc/government.
You said this_

Why not invest money on boots on the ground in France to stop these boats from even making it into the water? France have said they are willing to work with us to stop this as it does need to stop.
I have highlighted to you that is exactly what the government is doing.
Truth is, this all appears to be a shit storm about nothing! about language, about words like swarm and invasion. If you ask me that's for Starmer to sort out and he's not worth a light either if he cant.
 
No your wrong actually. I have been using that term to highlight the ease of which some jump on a bandwagon because of the squeaky clean image of Lineker v the bbc/government.
You said this_

I have highlighted to you that is exactly what the government is doing.
Truth is, this all appears to be a shit storm about nothing! about language, about words like swarm and invasion. If you ask me that's for Starmer to sort out and he's not worth a light either if he cant.

I haven’t actually replied to the second part as I believe you are putting words in Lineker’s mouth he hasn’t said the boats should be allowed to cross. If the 500m isn’t helping we need to look at why and maybe spend a bit more if that is what it takes.

He has simply said as a nation we can do more to help and he feels we should. You have made assumptions about him wanting to let the boats cross.
 
I haven’t actually replied to the second part as I believe you are putting words in Lineker’s mouth he hasn’t said the boats should be allowed to cross. If the 500m isn’t helping we need to look at why and maybe spend a bit more if that is what it takes.

He has simply said as a nation we can do more to help and he feels we should. You have made assumptions about him wanting to let the boats cross.
My understanding is that the 500m is a fresh agreement between Britain and France and that is partially my point. That is a positive but is not being credited.
Also I have not made assumptions about Lineker, all I know is he has raised issue with the language. It is the likes of yourself and RVN I have been questioning as you seem to be suggesting the issue falls behind Mrs Smith having to go to the foodbank and everything else.
The boats need to be stopped. That is and always has been my point.
I think Lineker and the BBC need to kiss and make up now before it all gets completely bonkers.
 
Now our making some sense, but is that not what this is all about?
Britain is to pay France 500 million to stop the boats. Stopping the boats I would say is Goody Two Shoes real issue!

With the bit in bold are you saying he wants the government to let the boats cross or that he wants to stop the boats. You giving him a silly nickname makes me read it as you think he wants us to let boats of asylum seekers cross the channel.

I can read this either way.
 
With the bit in bold are you saying he wants the government to let the boats cross or that he wants to stop the boats. You giving him a silly nickname makes me read it as you think he wants us to let boats of asylum seekers cross the channel.

I can read this either way.
To be honest, I think if he could have his way he would be laying on 3 ferries a day to bring them over and we would be paying Macron 500m just to have a few bodies help shepherd them on. He clearly thinks Britain isn't doing its bit where taking in asylum seekers are concerned.
I disagree with that, but that is not to say I think this government is getting everything right in regards to the issue either. Like I said, the Rwanda thing is awful.
 
To be honest, I think if he could have his way he would be laying on 3 ferries a day to bring them over and we would be paying Macron 500m just to have a few bodies help shepherd them on. He clearly thinks Britain isn't doing its bit where taking in asylum seekers are concerned.
I disagree with that, but that is not to say I think this government is getting everything right in regards to the issue either. Like I said, the Rwanda thing is awful.

So you have made an assumption despite your claim in the above post below about not making an assumption.

My understanding is that the 500m is a fresh agreement between Britain and France and that is partially my point. That is a positive but is not being credited.
Also I have not made assumptions about Lineker, all I know is he has raised issue with the language. It is the likes of yourself and RVN I have been questioning as you seem to be suggesting the issue falls behind Mrs Smith having to go to the foodbank and everything else.
The boats need to be stopped. That is and always has been my point.
I think Lineker and the BBC need to kiss and make up now before it all gets completely bonkers.
 
So you have made an assumption despite your claim in the above post below about not making an assumption.
You are wrong again. it is clear Lineker thinks Britain is not taking it's quota of immigrants. All his rhetoric says so.
“There is no huge influx. We take far fewer refugees than other major European countries.
Send him to live in a high rise in Tower Hamlets for a month. He is so far removed from the effects of mass immigration to possibly be an expert voice on the matter.
There is no doubt in my mind that allowing the huge influx he refers to makes our streets dangerous places to be. Immigration needs to be controlled, measured and successful asylum seekers fully assessed, monitored and ASSISTED where necessary.
We do of course hope that the people making the assessment's are solid respectful people who act with empathy and a human touch. This would be our minimum expectancy in this country.
Making comparisons with Nazi Germany is indeed over the top and wholly disrespectful. Do you really believe that is US!!
 
You are wrong again. it is clear Lineker thinks Britain is not taking it's quota of immigrants. All his rhetoric says so.

Send him to live in a high rise in Tower Hamlets for a month. He is so far removed from the effects of mass immigration to possibly be an expert voice on the matter.
There is no doubt in my mind that allowing the huge influx he refers to makes our streets dangerous places to be. Immigration needs to be controlled, measured and successful asylum seekers fully assessed, monitored and ASSISTED where necessary.
We do of course hope that the people making the assessment's are solid respectful people who act with empathy and a human touch. This would be our minimum expectancy in this country.
Making comparisons with Nazi Germany is indeed over the top and wholly disrespectful. Do you really believe that is US!!

There is a difference between a fair amount and 3 ferries a day as you claimed though. His argument is also we should be taking in more who have genuine claims not just implementing a blanket ban on all those who arrive by boat which is what this current policy aims to do.

He may not be directly impacted he’s done well for himself and I’m sure lives a comfortable life in some leafy suburb but he grew up in a working class family in Leicester in the 60/70s so he likely saw immigrants arrive around this time.

He is right to say it isn’t a huge influx 50,000 a year is 0.07% of our population
 
and if 50,000 a year is causing a problem for doctor and hospital appointments, housing, schooling etc. I would say the problem lays in the 12 years of tory cuts.

It's a crazy scheme, currently the main problem the public seem to have is the money spent keeping them in hotels. If they sped up the applications there would be less people in the hotels and more people to fill the gaps in the jobs market, earning money and paying taxes. And the ones with n claim to be here can be sent back to their country.

By stopping all applications they are just going to bung up the hotels and system even more. It is clearly a non workable scheme drummed up to create division in the hope of gaining votes in the next general election. As per usual the tories are looking after themselves and not the country.
 
and if 50,000 a year is causing a problem for doctor and hospital appointments, housing, schooling etc. I would say the problem lays in the 12 years of tory cuts.

It's a crazy scheme, currently the main problem the public seem to have is the money spent keeping them in hotels. If they sped up the applications there would be less people in the hotels and more people to fill the gaps in the jobs market, earning money and paying taxes. And the ones with n claim to be here can be sent back to their country.

By stopping all applications they are just going to bung up the hotels and system even more. It is clearly a non workable scheme drummed up to create division in the hope of gaining votes in the next general election. As per usual the tories are looking after themselves and not the country.
Can you give me a clue as to where they will be living as and when they free up the hotel rooms?
 
Some will live with family or friends they already have in the UK, some will take on private rental and others will need help.

Some random numbers that I found interesting on this topic

Of 45,755 applications made last year the government managed to process 340 applications. This is a major reason why the system is failing and we are spending millions per week on hotels we need more people to process these applications quicker.

In 2021 of the applications reviewed around 2/3 were successful so 2/3 of the people making that crossing had a genuine claim to asylum in the UK. in 2021 75% of applications were male, 10% females and 15% children.

In 2022 7,177 children crossed the channel under the new rules all of these will be returned and banned from ever applying for asylum in the Uk again.
 
Can you give me a clue as to where they will be living as and when they free up the hotel rooms?

There are many more empty homes on England than there are homeless.

But yes the housing crises the conservatives have caused is another major issue.
 

They are stoking dangerous divisions not every Tory voter is a "racist" and not every labour voter is "woke"

An MP thinking they can go on TV and say Lineker called Tory voters from the north Nazi's is dangerous because it simply isn't true and he could easily find himself tied up in a libel case if Lineker wanted to go down that road. MP's are meant to be people we trust to act in the best interest of all of us and be people of morals going on TV and spouting off lies is not what we need. You can disagree on policies but you can't tell lies about the other side and they really should be better than name calling.

Politics in this country has got to get back to working towards the benefit of all of us not just the very loud noises from the two extremes of the major parties.
 
If you ask me Boris will fly through his latest trial. I don't like this government but I form opinion on a case by case business.
As far as I am concerned if he and his cohorts of the time are guilty of anything, they are not guilty of anything I wouldnt have been guilty of myself.
He may have laid down rules and didnt follow them for himself and his party members but many were flaunting rules behind closed doors and there are no doors further closed than within government buildings. A little bit of privilege in tough times is a hard overlook.
To be honest, I would be more disappointed with the snakes within who took opportunity to take snaps and expose. Wouldnt surprise me if there was profit in the images they shared. Proper snakes within any organisation either private or public sector.
 
The issue Johnson faces isn’t what people were doing within Downing Street it’s what did he know and when.

As PM he is obliged to tell the truth in parliament as are all MPs. Parliament cannot function if people are allowed to lie so if he knowingly lied in parliament then he should not be allowed to remain in politics.

As our representatives they have to be held to the highest of high standards.
 
Parliament cannot function if people are allowed to lie so if he knowingly lied in parliament then he should not be allowed to remain in politics.
:D FFS, are you kidding me? Most of them are strangers to the truth most of the time.
Boris is hardly in Trumps league is he?
 
:D FFS, are you kidding me? Most of them are strangers to the truth most of the time.
Boris is hardly in Trumps league is he?

You can duck and dodge a question you don’t want to answer as they are all trained to do but you can’t go in that room and speak what you know to be false. It is a simple rule and standard that has to be upheld.

You can be wrong and say things that at the time you thought were true that later turned out to be false but the allegation is Johnson knew what he was saying was false but went to the floor and said it anyway.

He isn’t far off Trump both come from money and seem to believe that rules don’t apply to them. They both believe they are more important than the party and people they represent and are obsessed with power.
 
You can duck and dodge a question you don’t want to answer as they are all trained to do but you can’t go in that room and speak what you know to be false. It is a simple rule and standard that has to be upheld.

You can be wrong and say things that at the time you thought were true that later turned out to be false but the allegation is Johnson knew what he was saying was false but went to the floor and said it anyway.

He isn’t far off Trump both come from money and seem to believe that rules don’t apply to them. They both believe they are more important than the party and people they represent and are obsessed with power.
Look! nobody is infallible. In the circumstances of the time, there was opportunity to have a beer, opportunity to raise spirits within a working group who were (or should have been) working overtime and flat out to beat the threat we faced.
There were house gatherings up and down the country (and worse) with people trying to deal with the situation.
It was of course a seriously tough time for folk who either lost loved ones or found themselves caring for loved ones from the effects of Covid, not to mention the sufferer's themselves some who are still suffering.
But in some ways it's emotional blackmail when it comes to statements such as "my auntie died while you were flaunting the rules you imposed on the rest of us". Like he/they didn't care for the plight of others. It should not have been the expectancy that everyone should have conducted themselves like their aunt was in their deathbed and be in a state of mourning for such a prolonged period.
It would be like asking Winston to give up cigars and whisky during the war because every other c*nt was rationed to powdered milk and a fresh egg a week.
It all gets too much. Sometimes you have to accept there are privileged positions.
 
The old everybody is fallible excuse has been raised. What a surprise no one saw that one coming.

There isn't a privilege when it comes to laws imposed on society and no one is above the law. The quicker members of public and MP's realise that the better.

I worked overtime whilst half my company were furloughed travelled to the office every week. Guess what. Not once did we grab a beer together.
 
Boris is hardly in Trumps league is he?
He's lost at least four jobs due to lying; it's habitual. In that sense, he's very much like Trump. Also, he share's Trump's nepotistic urges too, as the recent knighthood request for his father demonstrated. Like Trump, Boris was willing to lie to achieve his political aims, as demonstrated by his proroguing of parliament and support for the big red Brexit bus.

Boris, like Trump, is a selfish, privileged narcissist with extremely slack morals. The only reason both men can achieve what they do is because enough people are willing to overlook their character flaws because they have 'big' personalities.
 
Look! nobody is infallible. In the circumstances of the time, there was opportunity to have a beer, opportunity to raise spirits within a working group who were (or should have been) working overtime and flat out to beat the threat we faced.
There were house gatherings up and down the country (and worse) with people trying to deal with the situation.
It was of course a seriously tough time for folk who either lost loved ones or found themselves caring for loved ones from the effects of Covid, not to mention the sufferer's themselves some who are still suffering.
But in some ways it's emotional blackmail when it comes to statements such as "my auntie died while you were flaunting the rules you imposed on the rest of us". Like he/they didn't care for the plight of others. It should not have been the expectancy that everyone should have conducted themselves like their aunt was in their deathbed and be in a state of mourning for such a prolonged period.
It would be like asking Winston to give up cigars and whisky during the war because every other c*nt was rationed to powdered milk and a fresh egg a week.
It all gets too much. Sometimes you have to accept there are privileged positions.

Again you miss the point this isn't about what they did it's about how they tried to cover it up. Did Boris know what was going on or not. If he did then he has knowingly mislead parliament. Yes this might seem quite small in the wider scheme of things but it's a rule that is key to parliament working you must tell the truth because if you can lie then really important decisions could be made on completely false information.

If we can't trust him to tell the truth in parliament then he has no right in being there.
 
The whatabout stuff just doesn't wash with me to be honest.

It's like being caught speeding then moaning that the car in front of you was going faster or was on his phone or wasn't wearing a seatbelt. It just doesn't wash with me it's deflection away from the point which is he's potentially been caught doing something he's not allowed to do.

If you are caught lying to parliament then you need to be pulled up for it and that goes for all MP's.
 
@jsp @O-Dog @IDFD I concede all your points are valid.
I just believe I would have fallen to the same temptations, and one thing I am not, is a hypocrite.
 
@jsp @O-Dog @IDFD I concede all your points are valid.
I just believe I would have fallen to the same temptations, and one thing I am not, is a hypocrite.

If I was PM and I knew these sort of things were going on I’d put an immediate stop to it. Any competent PM would realise Downing Street leaks like a sieve so eventually word would get out about what was going on.

No other work place was having social drinks in the office after work in this period. I’d argue drinking within Downing Street and Westminster needs to be reviewed given the behaviour of a number of MPs who lets say get a bit handsy after a few drinks.

This was more than 1 beer or a glass of wine these things went on for hours.
 
If I was PM and I knew these sort of things were going on I’d put an immediate stop to it. Any competent PM would realise Downing Street leaks like a sieve so eventually word would get out about what was going on. Street and Westminster needs to be reviewed given the behaviour of a number of MPs who lets say get a bit handsy after a few drinks.

This was more than 1 beer or a glass of wine these things went on for hours.
It wasn't just another work place was it? This was a work place like no other in the country. You appear to be saying that it would all have been ok but for the snipers within.
 
It wasn't just another work place was it? This was a work place like no other in the country. You appear to be saying that it would all have been ok but for the snipers within.

It is still a place of work where people should be expected to act like professionals. It should also be a place where the highest possible standards for behaviour are set this is a very serious work place. I don't have an issue with a team having a quick drink in the office at the end of the day to celebrate an achievement but this wasn't that, this was people realising they could get bladdered and have parties at downing street while the rest of us suffered through another bloody zoom quiz.

I wouldn't be ok with it as per the part of my post you chopped out and as soon as I knew what was happening it would be stopped not only for moral reasons but I'd also certainly be well aware of the snipers within and make sure I'm not giving them anything they can use against me. As I said I think consumption of alcohol in the government building needs to be much more tightly controlled.
 
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