Slow, Pragmatic, Boring and Dated

bludsucker

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Sharpe on Mourinho's United: Slow, pragmatic, boring, dated - Football365

Another interview from a club legend slagging off United’s style of play. Led me to do some digging of my own. I checked out all the results of our top 6 rivals where they have scored 1 goal or less and the list was surprising. I was expecting us to be the bottom of that list going by all the moaning our fans and the ex players have been doing. Take a look.
City 8
United 15
Liverpool 13
Spurs 19
Chelsea 21
Arsenal 20
The mighty and excellent Liverpool have been involved in thirteen matches where they have scored once or less. That’s not a whole lot far away from us. And look at Spurs. This makes me believe we are not as boring or dull as the media and some sections of the fans make it seem so.
 
You can't seriously tell me that you sit there on a Saturday afternoon looking forward to watching us play?

Sharpe is absolutely bang on, not sure how you can think any different, have you watched a game over the last few months?
 
One thing I hate about modern football is ppl throwing stats at every argument, rather than googling every single aspect of our game, sit down and watch 90 minutes of it, doesn't take a genius to work out that we are horrendous to watch.

70% of those stats would have come before the end of October when we were scoring 3 late games nearly every week, from November to May they would read a lot different.

Don't forget as well you can score 2/3 goals from set pieces and still be boring and pragmatic for 85 minutes, papering over the cracks with stats.
 
Sharpe is a nob after publicity. Who cares what he has to say.

If he had anything decent to say he'd be a coach or pundit.

He has completely forgotten to factor in why we played the way we did, what our personnel is, covering for defensive frailties etc.

I'm not denying the football has been dull since Christmas, I am saying there is a reason for that. Or at least I hope that's the case :)

I'd also question the players, how many games have we been poor first half and it's taken a rollocking from Jose to gee them up in the second half.
 
@Edgy1968 is quite right. The highlight of my week used to looking forward to and watching Utd but the last half of the season was difficult to get that feeling. I really hope we get the right players and can at least be slightly entertaining to watch as we have been dire 80% of the time. I watched the Coventry play off semi and final and it was a breath of fresh air to watch some decent, entertainment football for a change and they are/were League 2!!!
 
One thing I hate about modern football is ppl throwing stats at every argument, rather than googling every single aspect of our game, sit down and watch 90 minutes of it, doesn't take a genius to work out that we are horrendous to watch.

70% of those stats would have come before the end of October when we were scoring 3 late games nearly every week, from November to May they would read a lot different.

Don't forget as well you can score 2/3 goals from set pieces and still be boring and pragmatic for 85 minutes, papering over the cracks with stats.

Before November we played 10 games in the league and we scored one or less in 4 of those(40%). After November till may we played 28 games and scored one or less in 11 of those(39.28%). Not a whole lot of difference is there. This is why stats are important. They give you an unbiased view. Regarding the set piece goals I don’t think we are a team which scores a lot from them. I remember us being wank at corners and free kicks.
P.S: Just checked the stats regarding set piece goals we have scored 14 set piece goals. So not a whole lot of them.
 
Hopefully with the right signings we will be a bit more entertaining, not after harlem globetrotters just want to enjoy watching us play, bit of pace, urgency, passion, basically it would be nice to see them actually give a **** for once, blaming the players just as much as the manager here, they all need to seriously get their act together.

Although saying that the thought of Dalot, Manduzic and Arnatovic are not exactly setting the heart racing!
 
The problem with assessing our season on how attractive we play football is that attractiveness is an intangible. And each person can have his or her own standards. I for one look forward to watching united every week. That’s the highlight of my week. I admit it hasn’t been pretty or easy every week. But it hasn’t been as poor as @Edgy1968 and @Red Warrior have been making it out to be.
 
Before November we played 10 games in the league and we scored one or less in 4 of those(40%). After November till may we played 28 games and scored one or less in 11 of those(39.28%). Not a whole lot of difference is there. This is why stats are important. They give you an unbiased view. Regarding the set piece goals I don’t think we are a team which scores a lot from them. I remember us being wank at corners and free kicks.
P.S: Just checked the stats regarding set piece goals we have scored 14 set piece goals. So not a whole lot of them.

Jesus the 70% was not an official stat it was tongue and cheek, do people actually discuss anything these days with a million stats?

If you enjoy the kind of football were playing at the moment mate, you crack on, I'm happy for you. Me personally, I want to see some attacking intent, passion, urgency, fight, chances created, goals being scored etc., we scored 1 goal in the final 4 games, even when we've scored 2 or more in a game (Arsenal game was absolutely dreadful to watch, Swansea, Brighton at home in the cup etc.).

You get a couple of decent performances along the way but jesus you want to go through next season being entertained like that again, not for me.
 
Stats tell a story but never the full story we've all watched the games and the team is tough to watch they very rarely put the opposition on the ropes for a long period and as I think I've said before the results have been very good this season but I can't recall thinking we've played really well there in many games.

I think the best stat currently in terms of looking at quality of play is Xg as that looks to quantify the quality of your chances so it kinds of shows if you are just being clinical with the chances you get, are you wasting chances you should be expecting to score and defensively are you keeping chances to a minimum and defending well or are you benefitting from teams not taking chances they should score. I don't know what our attacking stats are like but I know our defensive ones are off the scale because De Gea saves/strikers miss a lot more chances against us than they should. From watching games I'd say our attacking play is about where it should be we don't create and waste lots of good good chances we tend to take the ones we should and don't take the speculative efforts.

I've watched pretty much every game this season on TV only made it to one match at the ground this season and quite often this team has been hard to watch teams have worked out that if you sit deep and park the bus against us at home we get frustrated and struggle to break through and we will normally offer you a chance at the other end. Away from home if you get after us and get in our faces especially early on we can be unsettled easily.

How many times did the opposition keeper get man of the match against us this season?
 
Stats tell a story but never the full story we've all watched the games and the team is tough to watch they very rarely put the opposition on the ropes for a long period and as I think I've said before the results have been very good this season but I can't recall thinking we've played really well there in many games.

I think the best stat currently in terms of looking at quality of play is Xg as that looks to quantify the quality of your chances so it kinds of shows if you are just being clinical with the chances you get, are you wasting chances you should be expecting to score and defensively are you keeping chances to a minimum and defending well or are you benefitting from teams not taking chances they should score. I don't know what our attacking stats are like but I know our defensive ones are off the scale because De Gea saves/strikers miss a lot more chances against us than they should. From watching games I'd say our attacking play is about where it should be we don't create and waste lots of good good chances we tend to take the ones we should and don't take the speculative efforts.

I've watched pretty much every game this season on TV only made it to one match at the ground this season and quite often this team has been hard to watch teams have worked out that if you sit deep and park the bus against us at home we get frustrated and struggle to break through and we will normally offer you a chance at the other end. Away from home if you get after us and get in our faces especially early on we can be unsettled easily.

How many times did the opposition keeper get man of the match against us this season?
I can’t make head or tail of the xG stat. I mean city have an xG of 91.43 but have scored 106 goals. Does that mean they have fluked 14.57 goals?
 
Jesus the 70% was not an official stat it was tongue and cheek, do people actually discuss anything these days with a million stats?

If you enjoy the kind of football were playing at the moment mate, you crack on, I'm happy for you. Me personally, I want to see some attacking intent, passion, urgency, fight, chances created, goals being scored etc., we scored 1 goal in the final 4 games, even when we've scored 2 or more in a game (Arsenal game was absolutely dreadful to watch, Swansea, Brighton at home in the cup etc.).

You get a couple of decent performances along the way but jesus you want to go through next season being entertained like that again, not for me.
To each his own. I like watching united. I have like watching them for a long time. Only period where I didn’t like watching them was lvg’s second season. We have improved markedly from that time both in results as well as the style of football. I also remember the flair teams under fergie as well as the pragmatic approach that he took post Ronnie and tevez left us. The only season which was better than this post Ronnie was the one where we won our no. 20. That was a good one for me. So objectively speaking we can be better but we are also not league two relegation plodders as you are making us out to be.
 
I can’t make head or tail of the xG stat. I mean city have an xG of 91.43 but have scored 106 goals. Does that mean they have fluked 14.57 goals?

It means of all the chances City created this season you would expect them to score 91.43 goals the fact they scored 106 shows that they were clinical with the chances they created so their performance was ahead of the curve. It is more likely that because of the quality of players they have in terms of finishing ability you would probably expect them to perform about Xg because guys like Aguero will score goals that the average player wouldn't.

Xg is basically calculated by taking every shot in every game taken from a position on the pitch and type of chance then you create a model and the number of those chances that go in gives it a value. A 1 yard tap in along the floor probably has a rating of 0.99 a halfway line overhead kick probably has a rating of 0.001. It also adjusts and grows over time so the longer you run the model the more accurate it gets.

For years we looked at the total number of shots and shots on target as measuring a teams attacking dominance what Xg does is try to put a value on the quality of the chance. So if you hit loads of speculative 30 yard shots that is worth a lot less than creating 5 open goal chances in the box.

Again it's a statistic that doesn't always tell the true story.
 
It means of all the chances City created this season you would expect them to score 91.43 goals the fact they scored 106 shows that they were clinical with the chances they created so their performance was ahead of the curve. It is more likely that because of the quality of players they have in terms of finishing ability you would probably expect them to perform about Xg because guys like Aguero will score goals that the average player wouldn't.

Xg is basically calculated by taking every shot in every game taken from a position on the pitch and type of chance then you create a model and the number of those chances that go in gives it a value. A 1 yard tap in along the floor probably has a rating of 0.99 a halfway line overhead kick probably has a rating of 0.001. It also adjusts and grows over time so the longer you run the model the more accurate it gets.

For years we looked at the total number of shots and shots on target as measuring a teams attacking dominance what Xg does is try to put a value on the quality of the chance. So if you hit loads of speculative 30 yard shots that is worth a lot less than creating 5 open goal chances in the box.

Again it's a statistic that doesn't always tell the true story.
So if United scored 68 goals and the xG stat is 59? How do we interpret that stat in relation to United’s season. Genuinely curious.
 
Goals don't equal good football, better finishing has meant we've scored more this season. 68 in league this season compared to 54 in league last season. Yet I preferred watching our football in the Prem last season, poor finishing and hitting the woodwork in a lot of games meant we didn't turn draws into wins and losses into draws or wins like we have this season.
Simply becoming better at playing the Mourinho way has also made us look better on paper but the reality is it's a hard watch whether you're in the ground or at home. I'm not Mourinho out... yet, I wouldn't be sad to see him go though and I have become disillusioned by it all, and I have fears that next season will be a disaster. If things have not changed by November, the fans will turn against him. There needs to be progress. I can't see it though, I think signings will simply make us better at playing Mourinho's football and I don't think the new assistants will have much of a say. I hope i'm wrong as Mourinho adapting to us and continuing is easier than changing manager and starting over again.
 
Goals don't equal good football, better finishing has meant we've scored more this season. 101 goals (68 in league) this season compared to 95 (54 in league) last season. Yet I preferred watching our football last season, poor finishing and hitting the woodwork in a lot of games meant we didn't turn draws into wins and losses into draws or wins like we have this season. Simply becoming better at playing the Mourinho way has also made us look better on paper but the reality is it's a hard watch whether you're in the ground or at home. I'm not Mourinho out... yet, I wouldn't be sad to see him go though and I have become disillusioned by it all, and I have fears that next season will be a disaster. If things have not changed by November, the fans will turn against him. There needs to be progress. I can't see it though, I think signings will simply make us better at playing Mourinho's football and I don't think the new assistants will have much of a say. I hope i'm wrong as Mourinho adapting to us and continuing is easier than changing manager and starting over again.

you've admitted here that Jose last year payed football you like, then go on to say we have got into his boring style.

Can't you see perhaps he changed the way we play to protect a weak defence?
 
Totally agree, no one is calling us "league 2 relegation fodder", but setting up to solely contain Hazard at Wembley, changing our whole approach due to one player, who ran through us and scored anyway, that is something I have zero interest in, we could have played for two weeks against Chelsea and not created a chance no matter than score a goal.

Yeah on paper this is our best season since we won the 20th title, but lets be honest, its not exactly been difficult to achieve that has it, following the disaster of Moyes followed by the robotic football of LVG and your using this in your argument.

I will let you argue re percentages, stats, triangles, possession, who went to the toilet the most during half time and whatever other stats Google have, I'm off to the pub to have a pint for lunch and chat about actual football, enjoy boys.
 
you've admitted here that Jose last year payed football you like, then go on to say we have got into his boring style.

Can't you see perhaps he changed the way we play to protect a weak defence?

I never said I liked it. I preferred the football in his first season to the season just gone. We played better football in his first season before his ways were ingrained this season. He said at end of first season that he knew what he had to do to improve us yet we've conceded more chances and created less, better finishing and De Gea have masked the fact we were worse in 2017/18 in my opinion.
 
I thought we had loads of chances against Chelsea, it was a tough cup final, Chelsea basically played with 11 men behind the ball.
 
I never said I liked it. I preferred the football in his first season to the season just gone. We played better football in his first season before his ways were ingrained this season. He said at end of first season that he knew what he had to do to improve us yet we've conceded more chances and created less, better finishing and De Gea have masked the fact we were worse in 2017/18 in my opinion.

he did try and improve, bought two new centre backs, we started the season really well, then we got pulled apart at the back and he realised his defence weren't up to be left on their own so changed the style to suit
 
Totally agree, no one is calling us "league 2 relegation fodder", but setting up to solely contain Hazard at Wembley, changing our whole approach due to one player, who ran through us and scored anyway, that is something I have zero interest in, we could have played for two weeks against Chelsea and not created a chance no matter than score a goal.

Yeah on paper this is our best season since we won the 20th title, but lets be honest, its not exactly been difficult to achieve that has it, following the disaster of Moyes followed by the robotic football of LVG and your using this in your argument.

I will let you argue re percentages, stats, triangles, possession, who went to the toilet the most during half time and whatever other stats Google have, I'm off to the pub to have a pint for lunch and chat about actual football, enjoy boys.
So you think you are better than those who use statistics to back up their conclusions? Then again I forgot it’s the pubs where “real football experts” gathered to chat over a pint.
 
Top and bottom of it, whichever way you look at it, the football at Manchester United has been rubbish since Moyes took over. Even that last season with Fergie was a bit poor too.

I wonder out of 1000 man u fans, how many would say the footballs been ok and how many would say rubbish?
 
I thought we had loads of chances against Chelsea, it was a tough cup final, Chelsea basically played with 11 men behind the ball.

Having taken an early lead, I don't remember us even coming close to scoring, we don't know what to do when we have majority of possession. Lukaku had the final 20 and didn't get a chance. Was the worst game of the season, I think we would have won with Lukaku and/or Fellaini on the pitch which pretty much sums it up.

1 young CB brought in for the future, Matic and Lukaku. Matic has not improved the midfield, he had a good season but wasn't much of an upgrade, just more in tune with Mourinho and had height. Lukaku was a great signing.
 
Top and bottom of it, whichever way you look at it, the football at Manchester United has been rubbish since Moyes took over. Even that last season with Fergie was a bit poor too.

I wonder out of 1000 man u fans, how many would say the footballs been ok and how many would say rubbish?
At least we as united fans should refrain from calling the club Man U. And about your question I don’t know about the others but I will say the football has been good. At least better than what it was under lvg.
 
Better than LVG hardly a ringing endorsement and shouldn't be a reason to give him more time if there isn't even a hint of progress in style of play next season. This is Manchester United, even Everton fans don't put up with boring football regardless of their position in the league. Our expectations as fans have dropped massively since 2009.
 
If he doesn't get 'his' players in to make it better this season he's in trouble. Based on who he's already bought in and how they have all worked out I'm not massively hopeful but gotta keep the fingers crossed
 
Man u?

I have no issues with man u cheers
The origin of the term "Man U" is a song to insult the late Duncan Edwards. The Leeds fans created their own version of the song to insult all the men that died in the Munich disaster of 1958.

Rival supporters have since adopted this term for the same use.

The song went like this:
"Man U,Man U, went on a plane!!
Man U, Man U, never came back again!!"

"Man U, Never Intended Coming Home"

Just observe the first letter of each word,it says "MUNICH"

I hope, that makes it a bit clearer that saying Man U is an insult, particularly to the players who were in that plane, who gave their lives serving the sport that we all love.

If you take anything from this, it is that you will never use the term "Man U" again. Also if you see that term flying around, you correct the uninformed user.

I don’t know how much of the above is true or whether that term originated from that chant but for me it is offensive and unrequired.
 
Defence and midfield should have been worked on first, he's put the roof on before the foundations.

Signings alone will not improve it, he has to make changes himself.
 
Better than LVG hardly a ringing endorsement and shouldn't be a reason to give him more time if there isn't even a hint of progress in style of play next season. This is Manchester United, even Everton fans don't put up with boring football regardless of their position in the league. Our expectations as fans have dropped massively since 2009.

Better than lvg isn’t maybe where we would like to be but that’s where we are as a club. Also better than lvg represents progress. Now we can all argue whether it’s enough progress or not. But what you can’t deny is that we have made progress.
 
So if United scored 68 goals and the xG stat is 59? How do we interpret that stat in relation to United’s season. Genuinely curious.

It would suggest that our players are more clinical than the average player is in the chances we've created which isn't surprising given the talent we have in attacking areas and how the model works.

What it suggests is based on the shots we had this season we should expect to score 59 goals which when you compare to City they would expect to score 96 that is a massive difference but it's fair to say they are off the charts good this season. The fact we both score above our Xg is largely down to the quality of our players as far as I know the Xg model doesn't account for indivudual talent so a shot by Ronaldo is rated exactly the same as the same chance for Rashford despite Ronaldo obviously being a more clinical finisher. However, it's based over such a wide number of games that it probably naturally corrects itself to give you the average. If you are scoring above your Xg it suggests you have good finishing skills if you are below Xg it suggests you are wasting chances.

Basically what it's saying is that based on the quality of chances we created we should score 1.55 goals per game, we actually achieved 1.74 goals per game so I'd read that as Utd compared to City don't create anywhere near the same number of good chances in a game and therefore as a result score less goals.

Like all stats it doesn't tell you anything and you need to dig deeper and interpret that result I would say Utd have a fairly low Xg because we often play for counter attacks rather than go all out attack in every game so we have games where our Xg is very low because we don't have many attempts at goal.
 
It would suggest that our players are more clinical than the average player is in the chances we've created which isn't surprising given the talent we have in attacking areas and how the model works.

What it suggests is based on the shots we had this season we should expect to score 59 goals which when you compare to City they would expect to score 96 that is a massive difference but it's fair to say they are off the charts good this season. The fact we both score above our Xg is largely down to the quality of our players as far as I know the Xg model doesn't account for indivudual talent so a shot by Ronaldo is rated exactly the same as the same chance for Rashford despite Ronaldo obviously being a more clinical finisher. However, it's based over such a wide number of games that it probably naturally corrects itself to give you the average. If you are scoring above your Xg it suggests you have good finishing skills if you are below Xg it suggests you are wasting chances.

Basically what it's saying is that based on the quality of chances we created we should score 1.55 goals per game, we actually achieved 1.74 goals per game so I'd read that as Utd compared to City don't create anywhere near the same number of good chances in a game and therefore as a result score less goals.

Like all stats it doesn't tell you anything and you need to dig deeper and interpret that result I would say Utd have a fairly low Xg because we often play for counter attacks rather than go all out attack in every game so we have games where our Xg is very low because we don't have many attempts at goal.
If I remember correctly we have like 4 counter attack goals all season. Also we take lesser amount of shots per game than all of the top 6. But it’s not a massive difference. City I think are on 17 shots per game and we are on 14 point something. Maybe the shots which they take are more clear cut chances hence the higher goals.
 
"Man U" by the way dates back a lot longer than Munich by the way. It's frowned upon because of that song but it is not derogatory unless you use it in a derogatory way.

Back to the point, I don't think we have made progress apart from on paper and in playing Mourinho's style of football.
 

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