Ruben Amorim

[SuperRash]

I find it very hypocritical of the many on here I've watched hound out 3 managers we should have stuck with to suddenly be defending the worst manager and football we have had to endure post Ferguson.

Most on here will agree with what I'm saying they just know saying it means admitting they were wrong and change doesn't always bring the right result

I think you’ll probably find most wouldn’t agree because they have a broader view of the situation at hand. But you have your opinion on Amorim which is fair enough but you are certainly not in the majority of United fans views on Amorim.

 

[SuperRash]

as sad as it, if they are nailing their colours on Amorim, then is there really a place in this squad for Garnacho. The amount of chances Garnacho has given up this season under both managers is horrific.

Mainoo could play higher up, but then do we need Bruno, so you imagine only one of those are needed.

There are some huge decisions to be made. Will they dump Amorim and then basically admit their first two decisions re: the manager have been a disaster?

If they do keep him, there are going to be players sales that will piss me right off. Now that's not on Amorim.

These big time charlies that have come in are as bad as the Glazers. You only needed to look at Nice and their other sporting endeavors to know this. Brailsford has got to be the biggest scammer the world has seen

I think Garnacho is actually one of the players that has adapted to the Amorim system quite well. He’s getting himself in some good positions but unfortunately he is struggling to finish and is probably short of confidence in that respect.

 

[RichH2016]

It's 14 games 4 wins. He's got us in relegation form and some aren't realising just how bad it is.

I think United fans realise how bad it is. But it’s bad because for the most part your players are not good enough. It’s a mid table at best team!

 

[Matt Varnish]

However we were playing much better football and the reason for the current rubbish we are seeing is on one man. Now ask yourself this. What change was made that led to us forgetting how to create chances?

The football under ETH was no better or worse than we are seeing now, the trend in the league was down, only Europe made ETH's form look any good.
You are talking as if Rasmus was getting three goals a game and has suddenly dried up because of Amorim, and that is not the case, this whole squad has been goal shy since before ETH arrived.
Two different systems, two different managers, same players.

I've not hounded out any manager, I don't think many fans have.
Most of us understand why boards sack managers, many of us may not agree with it, we just have to accept it.

Final point, if any part of football hounds out managers, it's the media, all the pundits on Sky, the hacks trying to sell papers, they are all very fond of putting people on a pedestal, and as soon as they can, they try to knock them off.

I make a point of not reading newspapers, I make a point of not watching the news, I also don't watch the failed as a footballer or manager pundits at half time and full time ripping to shreds managers trying to do a job.
Maybe you should do the same.

 

[Jayc1860]

Nom, nom.

 

[tripleglazed]

It's 14 games 4 wins. He's got us in relegation form and some aren't realising just how bad it is.

Of course it's bad. But if you bring in a new manager mid season who plays a completely different tactical formation and won't adapt, it's not a huge surprise. Especially when the players were already struggling.

But we're probably good enough to avoid relegation, barring a complete collapse. And then next season is next season which will be the time to judge him. This one was written off before he arrived anyway. The real problem is not being able to bring in any players that suit his system in the summer because we have so much dead wood on the wage bill. Shaw, Casemiro, Mount etc. Selling Mainoo would be clinically insane. We're just a very badly run club is the bottom line. The managers are only a small part of that.

 

[jsp]

The issue with the "deadwood" is these players are incredibly hard to sell and to actually make a profit on paper that saves the club money.

Shaw - his transfer fee is paid off so any transfer fee they got helps PSR. With the injuries though who's going to take him.
Casemiro - in the summer we need a minimum £15m transfer fee to cover what we still owe.
Mount - in the the summer we need around £30m transfer fee to cover what we still own.

It's not a unique issue for Utd it's just the way the PSR stuff works if you make a mistake you are kind of stuck without a way out and because european clubs absolutely rinse PL clubs on transfer fees selling those players back to other european clubs is almost impossible.

You just can't afford to make mistakes and we've made way to many.

 

[Mr C]

However we were playing much better football

We really weren't, ETH was some of the worst football I've seen. This isn't much if any better, but it's not worse.

I find it very hypocritical of the many on here I've watched hound out 3 managers

You're the only fan I know who has hounded a manager out who joined half way through a season, hasn't completed the season, has had no signings but had lots of departures. Lets not forget he wanted to join and have a pre season. The clowns in charge said no.

I'm not sure why you can't see it, most people want to give managers a fair crack not hound them out after half a season.

If after 2.5 years and 600m there is no progress, but lots of regression, then you have a fair shout at asking questions re: the manager.

 

[tripleglazed]

You just can't afford to make mistakes and we've made way to many.

Yeah PSR + Glazer mismanagement + Glazer asset stripping = Disaster. We may well be heading for hard times.

 

[IDFD]

We really weren't, ETH was some of the worst football I've seen. This isn't much if any better, but it's not worse.

You're the only fan I know who has hounded a manager out who joined half way through a season, hasn't completed the season, has had no signings but had lots of departures. Lets not forget he wanted to join and have a pre season. The clowns in charge said no.

I'm not sure why you can't see it, most people want to give managers a fair crack not hound them out after half a season.

If after 2.5 years and 600m there is no progress, but lots of regression, then you have a fair shout at asking questions re: the manager.

Because as I said when we appointed him he's the wrong man for the job as the system simply doesn't work in this country and he's going to set us back further if we strip out to replace them with those that work in a 5 at the back system. (Can we stop calling it 3 at the back finally. Like I said when he joined it would end too often with us playing a flat 5 and being toothless going forwards)

The idea the football isn't worse is absurd. It's been clearly much worse. Many even on here aren't fussed about watching the games because of how woeful it is.

 

[Matt Varnish]

Many even on here aren't fussed about watching the games because of how woeful it is.

If I'm perfectly honest, I cancelled my Sky and TNT subscription because of how woeful the football was under ETH, I was also fed up of hearing about his "Process".

 

[SuperRash]

Because as I said when we appointed him he's the wrong man for the job as the system simply doesn't work in this country and he's going to set us back further if we strip out to replace them with those that work in a 5 at the back system. (Can we stop calling it 3 at the back finally. Like I said when he joined it would end too often with us playing a flat 5 and being toothless going forwards)

The idea the football isn't worse is absurd. It's been clearly much worse. Many even on here aren't fussed about watching the games because of how woeful it is.

You keep beating that same drum but is there enough evidence to suggest Amorim’s system won’t work? Obviously the evidence so far is that it’s not gone great but it’s not irrefutable proof that it won’t work in this country.

A couple of examples that have already been made but another one is Pochettino played it on occasion for Spurs in their most successful EPL season. Obviously Conte for Chelsea as well.

There are probably more examples of managers using the system to good effect.

Are there are any tactical nuggets you would like to share why you don’t think the system will work? Do you not agree that it could work with different personnel? You’ve not really backed up your opinion with any real reasons.

 

[IDFD]

You keep beating that same drum but is there enough evidence to suggest Amorim’s system won’t work? Obviously the evidence so far is that it’s not gone great but it’s not irrefutable proof that it won’t work in this country.

A couple of examples that have already been made but another one is Pochettino played it on occasion for Spurs in their most successful EPL season. Obviously Conte for Chelsea as well.

There are probably more examples of managers using the system to good effect.

Are there are any tactical nuggets you would like to share why you don’t think the system will work? Do you not agree that it could work with different personnel? You’ve not really backed up your opinion with any real reasons.

No one has showed any proof of it being a success. The fact you mention Poch and Tottenham shows you enough.

The system doesn't work here because it turns in to a back 5. That's why we look decent in Europe where we play a flat 3.

Conte stumbled on it and was sacked the following season 10 games in.

 

[Jayc1860]

Your basis for the system not working is incorrect. The formation is supposed to change based upon what is happening.

I know the real flaw in the system, but you clearly don't.

Here's a clue - you're not even close.

 

[jsp]

Conte won the league in his first season, FA cup and 5th second season. Over the 2 seasons he averaged more than 2 points per game.

Left during pre season for his 3rd season.

What I will say is he had at his disposal 3 of the best players of that generation in their prime in Courtois, Kante and Hazard.

If you have the right players there is nothing wrong with this system the reality is we do not have the right players.

 

[Jayc1860]

Conte won the league in his first season, FA cup and 5th second season. Over the 2 seasons he averaged more than 2 points per game.

Left during pre season for his 3rd season.

What I will say is he had at his disposal 3 of the best players of that generation in their prime in Courtois, Kante and Hazard.

If you have the right players there is nothing wrong with this system the reality is we do not have the right players.

Yep. We need some world-class wing backs and they're not going to be easy to come by.

 

[jsp]

Yep. We need some world-class wing backs and they're not going to be easy to come by.

That’s what scouts are for. It’s an odd position as no one really plays that way in youth football.

You are kind of looking for wingers who are happy to play on their natural side but graft their nuts off.

It’ll take more than that the attack also needs some proper world class reinforcements.

 

[SuperRash]

No one has showed any proof of it being a success. The fact you mention Poch and Tottenham shows you enough.

The system doesn't work here because it turns in to a back 5. That's why we look decent in Europe where we play a flat 3.

Conte stumbled on it and was sacked the following season 10 games in.

Yeah like jsp said Conte won the title in his second season and got 5th the second. Maybe mistaking him for another manager when you are thinking of being sacked 10 games in.

It also depends on how you determine success. Conte won the title, Poch led Spurs to their highest points tally (granted he didn’t play the system the whole season and Glasner only lost 3 of his 14 games in charge of Palace in his first season. That was taking charge of a relegation threatened side as well.

So in the grand scheme of things, with the low volume of managers who have implemented the system, I would say it’s not exactly been a monstrous failure of a system.

 

[Jayc1860]

That’s what scouts are for. It’s an odd position as no one really plays that way in youth football.

You are kind of looking for wingers who are happy to play on their natural side but graft their nuts off.

It’ll take more than that the attack also needs some proper world class reinforcements.

Yeah defo gonna take more than what I said, but I think we both know they are the most important players in this system, if it's going to work properly. Maybe not our biggest priority right now, but the systems.

 

[jsp]

Yeah defo gonna take more than what I said, but I think we both know they are the most important players in this system, if it's going to work properly. Maybe not our biggest priority right now, but the systems.

I think we need 1 more for either side.

I’m not convinced Dalot is going to work out at wing back.

Dorgu + 1
Amad +1

I guess they’re hoping Amass could adapt to back up Dorgu next season.

 

[Jayc1860]

I think we need 1 more for either side.

I’m not convinced Dalot is going to work out at wing back.

Dorgu + 1
Amad +1

I guess they’re hoping Amass could adapt to back up Dorgu next season.

You have to consider the quality, I don't think any of them are top class wing-backs.

 

[IDFD]

Conte won the league in his first season, FA cup and 5th second season. Over the 2 seasons he averaged more than 2 points per game.

Left during pre season for his 3rd season.

What I will say is he had at his disposal 3 of the best players of that generation in their prime in Courtois, Kante and Hazard.

If you have the right players there is nothing wrong with this system the reality is we do not have the right players.

Conte is also a bit of a cop out as he never played this formation. He certainly never allowed his team to go in to a back 5 which is they key for 3 at the back working.

He didn't deploy Hazard as a 10.

It was a 3-4-3 not a 5-4-1. Which is what we are currently playing. Conte relied on wingers to create width and allowed the full backs to come inside when needed. Amorim doesn't do any of that.

However yes one manager in 33 seasons and 660 opportunities has managed to win a title playing 2 thirds of a season with a 3 at the back formation. Not a massive endorsement of the formation. (There being a low volume of managers that have tried it isn't a defence. There is a reason for there being a low volume of managers)

Football is a copycat game. Everyone moved to a 4-5-1/4-3-3. Everyone moved to the possession style based game.

No one has ever copied those trying to play 5 at the back.

It's been 14 games in the league. It has already proven it doesn't work. There is a reason he is bottom of the win percentages for our premier league managers and it isn't just the players. Ten Hag had a 53% win ratio with the same players. Amorim is in the 20s. That's how woefully bad it is. He's currently making Ragnick look a good premier league manager.

 

[SuperRash]

Conte is also a bit of a cop out as he never played this formation. He certainly never allowed his team to go in to a back 5 which is they key for 3 at the back working.

He didn't deploy Hazard as a 10.

It was a 3-4-3 not a 5-4-1. Which is what we are currently playing. Conte relied on wingers to create width and allowed the full backs to come inside when needed. Amorim doesn't do any of that.

However yes one manager in 33 seasons and 660 opportunities has managed to win a title playing 2 thirds of a season with a 3 at the back formation. Not a massive endorsement of the formation. (There being a low volume of managers that have tried it isn't a defence. There is a reason for there being a low volume of managers)

Football is a copycat game. Everyone moved to a 4-5-1/4-3-3. Everyone moved to the possession style based game.

No one has ever copied those trying to play 5 at the back.

It's been 14 games in the league. It has already proven it doesn't work. There is a reason he is bottom of the win percentages for our premier league managers and it isn't just the players. Ten Hag had a 53% win ratio with the same players. Amorim is in the 20s. That's how woefully bad it is. He's currently making Ragnick look a good premier league manager.

I guess the argument will be over when Amorim turns it around and you can eat some humble pie.

 

[Mr C]

@IDFD

If you watch his Sporting side, they were much more attacking than this.

This is a more defensive variant of the formation because, I'm not sure you're picking this up, HE DOESN'T HAVE THE PLAYERS HE NEEDS!

So we need let it ride this season and he needs backing in the window

Or you back this sorry squad of players and get a new manager. It's looking like this is probably the option. But oh my that makes Ineos really inept. And this squad is never going to compete, whoever is in charge.

 

[JammyRed]

Amorim had a young fit hard working team at Sporting playing this system at United he doesent have that instead he has a mixture of way past it has beens, young inexperienced, some always injured and crap.
If he`s guilty of anything its expecting the same from the United players in a much harder league but he`s said enough times that he wont change so get used to it, its either going to be given time to change the players..make that a long time or he`ll die on his sword.

 

[SuperRash]

@IDFD

If you watch his Sporting side, they were much more attacking than this.

This is a more defensive variant of the formation because, I'm not sure you're picking this up, HE DOESN'T HAVE THE PLAYERS HE NEEDS!

So we need let it ride this season and he needs backing in the window

Or you back this sorry squad of players and get a new manager. It's looking like this is probably the option. But oh my that makes Ineos really inept. And this squad is never going to compete, whoever is in charge.

Exactly this. Some of the posts criticising the system are just full of bumbling contradictions.

The system will never work but it has worked in the past. Conte made it work because he had a different set of players, so maybe Amorim needs that new set of players to make it work. But nope it’s all on Amorim with no other factors. More holes than a shipwrecked boat!

 

[jsp]

Conte is also a bit of a cop out as he never played this formation. He certainly never allowed his team to go in to a back 5 which is they key for 3 at the back working.

He didn't deploy Hazard as a 10.

It was a 3-4-3 not a 5-4-1. Which is what we are currently playing. Conte relied on wingers to create width and allowed the full backs to come inside when needed. Amorim doesn't do any of that.

However yes one manager in 33 seasons and 660 opportunities has managed to win a title playing 2 thirds of a season with a 3 at the back formation. Not a massive endorsement of the formation. (There being a low volume of managers that have tried it isn't a defence. There is a reason for there being a low volume of managers)

Football is a copycat game. Everyone moved to a 4-5-1/4-3-3. Everyone moved to the possession style based game.

No one has ever copied those trying to play 5 at the back.

It's been 14 games in the league. It has already proven it doesn't work. There is a reason he is bottom of the win percentages for our premier league managers and it isn't just the players. Ten Hag had a 53% win ratio with the same players. Amorim is in the 20s. That's how woefully bad it is. He's currently making Ragnick look a good premier league manager.

Just admit what you said was wrong about Conte being sacked straight after winning the league.

Are we really going to go through all this again? Conte and Amorim's systems are very similar the difference being Conte quickly found two players in Moses and Alonso to play as very attacking wing backs. Amorim has not found that solution he clearly wants his wing backs to be attacking players rather than defensive players. As a result we often get pushed back into a back 5 I don't think that's by design I think it's just a result of the quality of players we have to play that system.

Conte "number 10's" were a playmaker in Hazard and more of a direct runner in Pedro. I'd say that's pretty similar to what Amorim is going for generally he's had Amad or Garnacho playing with either Bruno or Mainoo. The main difference here is Hazard/Pedro are just better players than our options.

As for the copycat idea last season 3 teams won European Leagues playing a back 3 system. Leverkusen, Inter and Sporting all played with a back 3. Atalanta also won the Europa League playing that system so there is possibly a bit of a trend moving towards the back 3 as a system. 12 months earlier Inter had also reached a european final playing with a back 3.

I think the game is slowly moving away from ultra possession and intense pressing from the front. Teams are looking to be a lot more direct and physical. I think with Ten Hag we were building a squad that I think looked out dated it was a squad built to be technical as the game was becoming more physical with rule changes allowing for more physical contact.

I think the sample size is way to early to say this doesn't work, it certainly doesn't work with these players the question will be after a summer will it work with some different players who are better suited to what he's asking them to do.

 

[croady26]

as sad as it, if they are nailing their colours on Amorim, then is there really a place in this squad for Garnacho. The amount of chances Garnacho has given up this season under both managers is horrific.

Mainoo could play higher up, but then do we need Bruno, so you imagine only one of those are needed.

There are some huge decisions to be made. Will they dump Amorim and then basically admit their first two decisions re: the manager have been a disaster?

If they do keep him, there are going to be players sales that will piss me right off. Now that's not on Amorim.

These big time charlies that have come in are as bad as the Glazers. You only needed to look at Nice and their other sporting endeavors to know this. Brailsford has got to be the biggest scammer the world has seen

Yeah we have been totally scammed by INEOS, unfortunately their only competition was fake sheikh. So much for best in class they haven't got a clue and we have gone further backwards.

 

[Mr C]

why was he a fake? still interested apparently.

 

[jsp]

why was he a fake? still interested apparently.

Become a bit of an internet meme that he isn’t real. The Deep Fake Sheik. He is real but he doesn’t have the personal wealth to buy Utd.

It’s tricky now for him as Ratcliffe has an exclusivity period on all Glazer shares for the first 3 years.

He’s got 2 years left on that.

 

[IDFD]

Just admit what you said was wrong about Conte being sacked straight after winning the league.

Are we really going to go through all this again? Conte and Amorim's systems are very similar the difference being Conte quickly found two players in Moses and Alonso to play as very attacking wing backs. Amorim has not found that solution he clearly wants his wing backs to be attacking players rather than defensive players. As a result we often get pushed back into a back 5 I don't think that's by design I think it's just a result of the quality of players we have to play that system.

Conte "number 10's" were a playmaker in Hazard and more of a direct runner in Pedro. I'd say that's pretty similar to what Amorim is going for generally he's had Amad or Garnacho playing with either Bruno or Mainoo. The main difference here is Hazard/Pedro are just better players than our options.

As for the copycat idea last season 3 teams won European Leagues playing a back 3 system. Leverkusen, Inter and Sporting all played with a back 3. Atalanta also won the Europa League playing that system so there is possibly a bit of a trend moving towards the back 3 as a system. 12 months earlier Inter had also reached a european final playing with a back 3.

I think the game is slowly moving away from ultra possession and intense pressing from the front. Teams are looking to be a lot more direct and physical. I think with Ten Hag we were building a squad that I think looked out dated it was a squad built to be technical as the game was becoming more physical with rule changes allowing for more physical contact.

I think the sample size is way to early to say this doesn't work, it certainly doesn't work with these players the question will be after a summer will it work with some different players who are better suited to what he's asking them to do.

I haven't been wrong in what I've said about Amorim. Before his team kicked a ball i said our defenders would turn in to a back 5 and we'd be toothless going forwards.

I'd say i pretty much nailed it. The results and football are the worst we've seen post Ferguson but he's been bailed out in the European games keeping his win percentage slightly higher. I also said when he came in we are a good cup side and his system will work in Europe where the wingers won't push our full backs back. There is a reason our football and the results are the worst we've seen and it's not a massive secret. It's that it's not working.

In terms of Conte and his sacking I must have confused the timing with Mourinho however as you yourself stated it wasn't a success the second season. They failed to even make Champions League football. We have 1 period of success from it in the league over 33 seasons. Yet how long did it take for everyone to transition to a 4-5-1/4-3-3 it basically happened overnight. Because teams realised they needed to copy it to compete.

Again I've highlighted that the formation does work in Europe and in other countries we've seen it work there time and time again. What's your reasoning for it working for us in the Europa League but can't work for us vs Southampton? We haven't got the evidence of it working here apart from one season where teams hadn't adapted to it and then did the next season and as you said they had Hazard performing like the best player in the world coming in from the left.

 

[IDFD]

Highest Win Percentage Manchester United Manager | StatMuse

Alex Ferguson has the highest winning percentage by a Man United manager in the Premier League, winning 65.2 percent of the time.

www.statmuse.com

Just in case you all really don't get how bad it is and realising the Europa League is bailing out his overall win percentage.

He's gotta win 13 of his next 20 to match Moyes. Can't see that happening.

By now you'd have expected to see some sort of improvement. New manager bounce lasted 1 game.

 

[jsp]

I haven't been wrong in what I've said about Amorim. Before his team kicked a ball i said our defenders would turn in to a back 5 and we'd be toothless going forwards.

I'd say i pretty much nailed it. The results and football are the worst we've seen post Ferguson but he's been bailed out in the European games keeping his win percentage slightly higher. I also said when he came in we are a good cup side and his system will work in Europe where the wingers won't push our full backs back. There is a reason our football and the results are the worst we've seen and it's not a massive secret. It's that it's not working.

In terms of Conte and his sacking I must have confused the timing with Mourinho however as you yourself stated it wasn't a success the second season. They failed to even make Champions League football. We have 1 period of success from it in the league over 33 seasons. Yet how long did it take for everyone to transition to a 4-5-1/4-3-3 it basically happened overnight. Because teams realised they needed to copy it to compete.

Again I've highlighted that the formation does work in Europe and in other countries we've seen it work there time and time again. What's your reasoning for it working for us in the Europa League but can't work for us vs Southampton? We haven't got the evidence of it working here apart from one season where teams hadn't adapted to it and then did the next season and as you said they had Hazard performing like the best player in the world coming in from the left.

And playing with a back 4 we weren’t toothless in games? I think everyone could see and still agrees trying to put these players in a new formation mid season with games every 3 days for the first few months wasn’t going to be smooth sailing. The pieces to play that way are not there and Amorim himself wanted to wait until the summer but the club refused and rather than back him in January they’ve actually cut the squad in size.

Results no doubt are the worst post Ferguson but they aren’t radically different from league results in the second half of last season. Performance wise I’m still scarred from Van Gaal’s second season football but this isn’t far off that but Van Gaal had 2 summer transfer windows and produced that whereas Amorim hasn’t had that chance yet. As brutal as it is I’ve accepted this will be an ugly side to watch until the summer when hopefully they can change some of the players.

I get the back 3 hasn’t been fashionable in England but that doesn’t mean it can’t work. Apart from Chelsea no one’s ever really committed to it for a decent period. Conte and Tuchel both used it they tried 4-3-3 with Sarri in between and it wasn’t working for them. Conte won 2 trophies in 2 season and Tuchel won the European Cup playing with a back 3.

From memory a big factor in Conte’s 2nd season was they sold Matic & Diego Costa and the replacements were flops. They went from no European football to Champions League which stretched the squad and they struggled to cope. He wasn’t happy with the transfers and it all went sour as it often does with Conte.

Football will always come down to the quality of your players within a system. We just haven’t signed enough good players in the last 5 years to give any manager a chance we’ve got the signings badly wrong.

You might be right it might not work out but you have to at least give it some time and see how it look after 10 games next season.

 

[tripleglazed]

Become a bit of an internet meme that he isn’t real. The Deep Fake Sheik. He is real but he doesn’t have the personal wealth to buy Utd.

It’s tricky now for him as Ratcliffe has an exclusivity period on all Glazer shares for the first 3 years.

He’s got 2 years left on that.

I'm beginning to think his plan is to get the club relegated so they will sell in a panic and he can get them cheap. Actually makes sense when you think about it. Edit: it really doesn't

 

[jsp]

I'm beginning to think his plan is to get the club relegated so they will sell in a panic and he can get them cheap. Actually makes sense when you think about it.

Personally I think he’s got a handshake deal done with the glazers to buy them out in the next 2 years.

I think his plan was to get in make loads of unpopular decisions while the glazer name is still attached. Rampant cost cutting alongside aggressive price increases to try and return the club to at least breaking even maybe even a small profit.

He then buys them out and can basically say all that was necessary because of them and they take the blame for it.

When he goes to the banks for the stadium money I think he needs to be able to show a much healthier business than the one he’s walked into.