Protest at OT - May 2nd

jsp

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Yeah and the billionaire feels so humbled these days, he says he'll travel on public transport, providing he has the time to purchase the Manchester busses en masse!

All I'll say is it's a start and a necessary step but he needs to be judged by his actions so will he answer the questions honestly and then will he back them up with actions.

For example will they make some of the shares that carry voting right available for fans to buy to give them a voice within the club?

It's very unlikely that the Glazers sell up or give up any control but the best we can hope for is that they change and agree to simple changes like stop paying themselves dividends until the debt is repaid or use that money to put towards stadium improvements.
 

Macariman

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All I'll say is it's a start and a necessary step but he needs to be judged by his actions so will he answer the questions honestly and then will he back them up with actions.

For example will they make some of the shares that carry voting right available for fans to buy to give them a voice within the club?

It's very unlikely that the Glazers sell up or give up any control but the best we can hope for is that they change and agree to simple changes like stop paying themselves dividends until the debt is repaid or use that money to put towards stadium improvements.
Don't hold your breath!
 

jsp

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I won't as I've always said with owners actions speak louder than words we've had a lot of words from these lots that don't match their actions.

Actually speaking to the fans directly even via a conference call is a start but we then need him to listen to the fans concerns and actually make some changes to the way they behave.

My guess is they won't change anything they'll just do what they've always done all they care about is the share price and the annual dividend that isn't in the fans interest the fans need to see that the club is doing everything it can to be the best it can be on the pitch.

Also, making sure the fans experience is as good as it can be that means keeping the ground in a good condition, making it value for money to go to the games and making sure the tickets are distributed in a fair way so all people have the opportunity to go.

Basically start listening to your "customers" rather than totally ignoring them and praying on their loyalty to line your own pockets because at this point they know they went to far and they lost a lot of that loyalty as they are getting hammered by fans across the world for what they did.
 

Mr C

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I think you need to take them for their word, they know the trouble that's going on.

I for one am giving the benefit of doubt for now, they way they bought the club was disgusting, and the loans have been crippling. But we could have worse owners, they could have spent nothing on players or wages.

For me, for now, it's better the devil you know, especailly if they are willing to start listening and taking action to our wishes.

If it all falls on deaf ears, again, then something needs to be done, we will need a new buyer, and trying the red knights again might be the way.

But lets not think anyone who buys the club won't take dividends, of course they will, or what's the point in buying. The main thing for me is paying that debt off, upgrading the stadium, while still buying the players we need.

I'm not holding my breath
 

jsp

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I just don't think you can take their word as they have lied in the past.

It sounds like further protests are planned for Thursday there was a few people there last night but the talk is the group behind the first protests will attempt to get this game called off again.

Security around the ground this time is much tighter.
 

Mr C

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For what benefit? to completely ruin our chances of a trophy. It's probably Liverpool fans wanting the points.
 

jsp

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They want to force the owners to sell they've simply had enough of them they see this as a moment in time where they've finally got some momentum to force them out so they see it as by any means necessary.

They want to embarrass the club and the owners in front of the worlds media and online by targetting our sponsors.
 

Mr C

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they wanted to talk, which has been agreed.

Who is it they think will buy the club?

Even worse, and then give it to the fans. They need to be realistic.

They want 51%, going to find 2 billion are they o_O

They need a reality check.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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Descending into free fall is a tad over the top though. We could forfeit every league match until the end of the season and still finish in the CL spots for next year. Yeah, second would be a nice sign of progress under Ole, but if we don't because of fan actions then that has nothing to do with our growth on the pitch.

Joel Glazer appearing at a fans forum is a very very small start, not the big grand sweeping gesture he probably thinks it is. Besides, I'm just about cynical enough to believe that he's going to try and quell further protests against sponsors and is solely motivated by greed and lust for cash.
 

Mr C

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For not fullfilling their duty of getting a match played.

This nob was talking about a point drop for playing a B team last night, so it's not relevant what he said really.

But it's never happened before, if the match gets put off again, and there is no time to play it, then they could deduct points. No one knows.

Also, I don't see the point, they have said they will talk, I read somewhere they have said they will improve OT. So lets just hear what they've got to say and hopefully have rested players for our final.

If it all comes to nothing then we need a more constructive way, not trashing the ground, fighting police and getting matches stopped.

But as I keep saying, there is a very limited pool of people with 4b to spend. You have no idea who you'll end up with. So for me, we need to try and work with them
 

jsp

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How can we be constructive when the other side have shown no interest in listening to what we have to say for the last 15 years?

Also, they've broken the trust by going down the super league route before consulting fans.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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Not sure what the club was supposed to do differently? If they were negligent in some way or didn't provide proper stewarding and something happened in the ground, then fair enough, but this is happening on public property or at a privately owned hotel. There's nothing United can do about it.

If the match gets postponed again, they will rearrange it again because they can't afford to lose the TV/sponsorship revenue that comes from arguably the biggest game in English football.

Trashing the ground and fighting police is stupid. There's no condoning that.

I think history has shown that there is no working with these owners. They are here to mine all of the money they can get from this club and then move on. I heard somebody saying the Glazers see a 10bn valuation one day. If that's the case, we're screwed and need them out more than ever.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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MEN Article

Apparently we have 1.1bn fans worldwide. It that's even half true, it takes 8 quid each to raise 4bn. Somebody or some corporation looking for profile/content buys the club off the Glazers, floats 50% to the fans with slight markup and rules about the most one entity can own. They recoup, say 2.5/3bn having only spend net 1-1.5 bn.

The issue is going to be the debt and capital underinvestment, which will need to be funded by the club or the individual/corporation that buys it.
 

Macariman

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How can we be constructive when the other side have shown no interest in listening to what we have to say for the last 15 years?

Also, they've broken the trust by going down the super league route before consulting fans.
Agreed, all but 'broken the trust' Have they ever had that trust. As was said earlier, the manner in which they acquired MUFC, was disgraceful. They showed from the offset who they were, what they were all about i.e. greed, and where their future intentions lay, once again greed. People in power with their wealth, have only 1 intention.
Extending that wealth, no matter who or what ever gets in their way.
They are a cancer inside OT,, and must be eradicated now, after their despicable moves, behind everyone's back, to form an ESL.
It will be very difficult, yes, but to sit back and wait, and allow them anymore opportunities, will only cost us dearly.
Supporters of MUFC must stand up to these bastards and take actions, any actions at all, to show the real strength and passion behind this magnificent club!
 

jsp

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The important thing is no one knows what the alternative to the Glazers might be we hope it will be better but it might be worse.

The relationship with the Glazers is like an abusive relationship but the side getting the abuse has finally stood up to the bully and had enough and is fighting back and the bully doesn't like it as they've lost a bit of a grip on the control of the relationship.

I think it's beyond repair and beyond talks unless the glazers are willing to give up a share of the club to some fans that gives them some voting rights on how this thing is run because for years it's been abused for the owners own greed and it has to stop.
 

Mr C

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The super league, it was a stupid idea, but I don't balme them for looking at alternatives.

UEFA take far too much money for basically doing an admin job, agents and players want more and more ridiculous fee's and wages. I don't really have an issue with that. In fact I'd rather a TV deal where I can pay watch united and ignore the other dross, especailly as I'm in Europe and TV rights deals are all over the place. One place for all fans like the Man Utd website would suit me.

We're all on here saying what players we want, the money has to come from somewhere.

So although the SL idea was ridiculous, as I said at the time, some sort of version of that would have been ok with me, a European league, with relegation to replace the CL in principal, or something.

My problem with the Glazers is the dept, the ground and the facilities, which if true can be extended to the womans team. They need to do something about all of these, while maintining the money being spent on the first team.

Also, the pool for buyers of a 4 billion project is small, it's going to be more businessmen milking the club, or someone like the Saudi's with awful human rights sportwashing. If the Glazers can be talked into doing the right thing by the club after all this time, that would be my favoured option. I won't hold my breath. Even Ratcliffe wouldn't buy the club because the returns weren't high enough. It's always going to be about how much money the owners can get their hands on.

We are never going to happy with whoever owns the club, same with the Edwards family. That's just normal, someone is always to blame.
 

jsp

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You don't need 1 buyer though this is the point fans can all buy shares in it if given the chance so you need a group of investors Utd does not have to be the property of 1 person/family. The fan share needs to have some power really a return to the plc structure wouldn't be the end of the world but the fans need a big enough share or a "golden share" that always means they have a significant vote on the board.

The big clubs already take to much and they keep asking for more and more and more the UEFA money gets shared out to all the smaller nations to help fund the grass roots game. The big clubs need to get control of costs and just start saying no stop spending money you don't have if you do that eventually you drive down the price of the tranfer fees, agent commissions and wages. The clubs are the reason these are so high because they keep paying them if you keep paying people will keep asking so they need to work together to control spending. The damage suffered by the big clubs is all laregely self inflicted they've spent money poorly and paid the price.

FFP was supposed to help with this but it had no real teeth because all the clubs tried to game the system to get an advantage. The clubs should be workign together as an industry to control costs because currently they are getting their pants pulled down by everyone getting paid and because of that they need to squeeze every last drop from a fan.

The current CL format in most fans view was already to bloated in terms of games the group games are largely a formality and don't really get much interest from fans especially the top clubs. The clubs forced UEFA to add more group games which to me is mad. Football at it's best requires tension and jeopardy knockout football win or go home as the Americans would say.

If there's more group games guess what the season ticket prices will be going up, then the TV packages will be going up and so on and so on.
 

Mr C

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I don't think you can't just say this a problem of the big clubs. The little clubs ask for stupid fee's too. And the agents should be regulated, which UEFA could have done. You can't turn back time, we can't offer 30m for Rice when West Ham want 80m. You can't not strengthen your team because your fans want you ousted or the manager sacked when that happens. This is not just about the owners and the clubs. The fans are responsible too.

As for the fan membership, it's not going to happen, so forget about it, who is going to buy a 4 billion pound club, then give up the privelige of running it how you want? nobody. It's a crazy idea. It should have been done at the outset like Germany. It cannot be done now. I think some of these ideas I hear are just crazy, so idealistic without thinking about the reality. Man Utd is not a local club any more, nor is any club, it is a huge business. No one is going to buy it and then give up the running of it.

I don't think the clubs asked for more games, they probably asked for money, so UEFA came up with more games. As I understand it, when the dust settles the clubs will complain about the new CL format.
 

jsp

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But you can't just keep going the way it's going because eventually clubs will just go bust they spend to much money and they are fleecing fans we're already seeing the revenues hitting a ceiling so clubs have got to sensibly control costs. The big clubs have forgotten how to bully the small clubs if West Ham want 80m for Rice they should all say no it's then up to Rice to either convince his club to lower the price or it teaches players like him to avoid signing big contracts that don't have release clauses.

How do you regulate an agent? Who's to say what an agent deserves as their fee from a deal? Simply put it is on clubs to refuse to deal with agents who take the p*ss. See how long their star players hang around if none of the big clubs will deal with them because their fees are to high. They are basically employed as freelance consultants so are free to negotiate any terms they want with any party as long as they don't end up in a conflict of interest.

Before the Glazers Utd wasn't under the control of 1 person from the early 90's to the mid 00's it was a plc anyone could buy and sell shares in Utd. If the Glazers decided to sell they'd probably float it on the stoke exchange and sell it over time rather than look for one out right owner as lets be honest no one person can afford to buy it at the current value.

The clubs asked for more games because they want more money not just from TV but also tickets so when the current deal with UEFA expired they told UEFA what they wanted and negotiated from there. I'm certain that the pressure for more matches will have come from the clubs
 

Mr C

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If the Glazers decided to sell they'd probably float it on the stoke exchange and sell it over time rather than look for one out right owner as lets be honest no one person can afford to buy it at the current value.
And you think that will be better? The shareholders will still want dividends. And as you say, the PLC didn't work out too well last time did it, all sold their shares to the Glazers for a quick buck. Or enough did for a takeover

And again, what planet is you think that every football club is going to get together and agree a transfer strategy? If PSG want 150m for Mbappe, and Madrid want him, they will pay it, they are not going to sign Calvert Lewin because he fits in with some schedule of fee's everyone has agreed.
And for the strategy to work, every club would need to sign up to it, so are West Ham going to sign up to a deal where they lose 40m on a player?

We need to be realistic about football, what it is. It's a huge business, and nothing will change that.

Unless, UEFA put in transfer caps, wage caps etc, but it won't happen, it can't. Why is it you think Madrid, Barca and Juve are hanging on, it's a business and the new money is out East. And that is where they will target.

Although there is talk of a 2 year CL ban for them.

And UEFA have the power to do whatever they want re: agents. 1% of the transfer fee or something.
 

Macariman

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The important thing is no one knows what the alternative to the Glazers might be we hope it will be better but it might be worse.

The relationship with the Glazers is like an abusive relationship but the side getting the abuse has finally stood up to the bully and had enough and is fighting back and the bully doesn't like it as they've lost a bit of a grip on the control of the relationship.

I think it's beyond repair and beyond talks unless the glazers are willing to give up a share of the club to some fans that gives them some voting rights on how this thing is run because for years it's been abused for the owners own greed and it has to stop.
Curious, when did u come to the summation that the relationship was beyond repair?
 

IDFD

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And UEFA have the power to do whatever they want re: agents. 1% of the transfer fee or something.

If only it was that. 10% of the fee is the cap that the new rule allows for agents representing the selling club.

3% of the players contract for agents representing the player and the buying club. To a combined total of 6% if the same agent is representing both.

With a ban in place on having an agent that represents all 3 parties in the deal.
 

jsp

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Curious, when did u come to the summation that the relationship was beyond repair?

2005 if I'm totally honest the way they took over was never going to be accepted since then I've never signed up to any membership or bought a new shirt. My trips to games have been borrowing someones season ticket or a corporate day through work contacts.

I think the fans have always wanted to get them out ever since they took over.

Where I really felt let down was back in 2010 when they decided to sell shares with the intention of raising capital for the club to pay down it's debt then at the last minute they decided to pocket 50% of the revenues from share sales for themselves.

At that point you just realised you're never getting out from under this debt pile as there's no real incentive for them to repay it as every year there's still enough to take a dividend and pay the interest which is all they actually care about.

The shambolic way the club has performed since 2013 when Fergie left just highlighted it absolute fortunes p*ssed up the wall with no real thought process behind it and as a result performances on the pitch finally fell away.
 

jsp

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And you think that will be better? The shareholders will still want dividends. And as you say, the PLC didn't work out too well last time did it, all sold their shares to the Glazers for a quick buck. Or enough did for a takeover

And again, what planet is you think that every football club is going to get together and agree a transfer strategy? If PSG want 150m for Mbappe, and Madrid want him, they will pay it, they are not going to sign Calvert Lewin because he fits in with some schedule of fee's everyone has agreed.
And for the strategy to work, every club would need to sign up to it, so are West Ham going to sign up to a deal where they lose 40m on a player?

We need to be realistic about football, what it is. It's a huge business, and nothing will change that.

Unless, UEFA put in transfer caps, wage caps etc, but it won't happen, it can't. Why is it you think Madrid, Barca and Juve are hanging on, it's a business and the new money is out East. And that is where they will target.

Although there is talk of a 2 year CL ban for them.

And UEFA have the power to do whatever they want re: agents. 1% of the transfer fee or something.

They didn't all sell their shares some were forced to sell once the Glazers reached a certain level as they could enforce a compulsory purchase. All fans would need is enough shares that stop that threshold ever being met and yes shareholders are entitled to a dividend but I would expect the fan proportion not to take their dividend every year to reinvest it in the club. Fans would also have a say on what that dividend should be.

Football acts like a huge business but it really isn't it employs a relatively small number of people and the revenues of these clubs are not huge when compared to actual big businesses. Football clubs still talk in millions not billions when it comes to turnover.

UEFA can only enforce rules that are legally enforceable anything that restricts free trade within the EU or UK will just be ripped apart in courts by lawyers they are not a regulator with any authority they have no power to set any laws. How do you regulate an agent who works across many different legal zones the agent has to comply with the laws of the land he is operating in.

This is why FIFA gave up on regulation years ago as it was impossible to keep a track of and actually enforce any sanctions.

The big thing that needs to be better controlled by clubs is transfer fees and wages like you say not an easy thing to do but they have to find a way because the revenues are topping out which means the costs can't keep going up because if they do the house of cards collapses.
 

Macariman

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2005 if I'm totally honest the way they took over was never going to be accepted since then I've never signed up to any membership or bought a new shirt. My trips to games have been borrowing someones season ticket or a corporate day through work contacts.

I think the fans have always wanted to get them out ever since they took over.

Where I really felt let down was back in 2010 when they decided to sell shares with the intention of raising capital for the club to pay down it's debt then at the last minute they decided to pocket 50% of the revenues from share sales for themselves.

At that point you just realised you're never getting out from under this debt pile as there's no real incentive for them to repay it as every year there's still enough to take a dividend and pay the interest which is all they actually care about.

The shambolic way the club has performed since 2013 when Fergie left just highlighted it absolute fortunes p*ssed up the wall with no real thought process behind it and as a result performances on the pitch finally fell away.
So we're agreed on 1 point. We both want the best for MUFC. I'm not an Economist, but I am aware that we have been shagged by this family for 15 years. If we only go by figures, they will not be removed, the chances are, it'll become a generational thing! They'll pass us down to their children, knowing, financially, it's a safe bet. Add that to the fact that their family have absolute power over one of world sport's most prestigious clubs.
The pen can sometimes be mightier than the sword, let's allay that to their such gracious offer of attending a fan's forum
But there are times when actions speak louder than words.
What should we settle for at present???
 

Mr C

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They didn't all sell their shares some were forced to sell once the Glazers reached a certain level as they could enforce a compulsory purchase
yeah, I did mention that, and there is nothing to say it won't happen again.

I don't know if you remember the PLC, I do, fans moaned about that, and the Edwards before them. It's just the way.

If the Glazers sold on the open stock market, there is no saying who is buying, or what for what gain.

I'm afraid there is a no win situation for the fans like us. The Glazers stole the club and that's that. We need to somehow get them to come to terms with what the match going and mainly UK based fans want. The milions of fans outside the UK couldn't give a toss who owns the club, they don't understand. It's just not the same for them as it us, they don't get what the game tonight means to actual fans.

I think we need to listen to their plans, they need to listen us, that is definitley the next step, who knows the greedy buggers or manily Joel might have actually become a fan....................

If it's still no different I think then something similar to the red knights needs to be explored and maybe offer them more than the club is worth on Wall St. And then if doesn't work, maybe going 80's miners vs Thatcher will work, although it didn't for them.

For me, I'd rather get we want diplomatically rather than completely ruin the playing side of things, especially as we seem to be on an up for the first time in ages. I know they have never listened before, but now is the time, they are weak after the SL proposals.
 

jsp

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So we're agreed on 1 point. We both want the best for MUFC. I'm not an Economist, but I am aware that we have been shagged by this family for 15 years. If we only go by figures, they will not be removed, the chances are, it'll become a generational thing! They'll pass us down to their children, knowing, financially, it's a safe bet. Add that to the fact that their family have absolute power over one of world sport's most prestigious clubs.
The pen can sometimes be mightier than the sword, let's allay that to their such gracious offer of attending a fan's forum
But there are times when actions speak louder than words.
What should we settle for at present???

They run Utd like they run one of their shopping malls in the states it's run for profit and to do that they spend as little money as possible to keep the rent coming in.

Well they've already been passed down to an extent when Malcolm died his stake was split amongst his kids.

I personally feel we are stuck with them they are going nowhere but now is the time that they have to start engaging with us as fans as they often say in business the customer is always right so you need to listen to your customers.

The clubs is reaching the point where the stadium does need some TLC so lets hear the plans for that, the fans are concerned over the level of debt currently being carried so lets hear the plan for that, the fans are also concerned by the performance on the pitch so lets hear the plan for that.

The club for the first time in a long time actually needs some investment in it now is not the time to be taking the money out use the money to make it more stable.
 

Mr C

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yeah, I mean they can't be that thick, it needs investment to pay off in the long term
 

jsp

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yeah, I mean they can't be that thick, it needs investment to pay off in the long term

Well it doesn't the banks will keep it ticking over as long as the revenues and profits are stable and they think can pay it.

Banks don't actually want to you to pay back debt or credit they want you paying the interest every year because that is how they make money.

The pressure currently for the Glazers to pay back the debt is actually quite low unless the interest rate suddenly shot up they'll just keep it ticking over. They've actually been pretty clever at de-risking their debt over their tenure and keeping it manageable.

The problem is say Utd need to borrow again to rebuild Old Trafford the fact we already carry debt means adding to it will be seen as risky and come at a greater cost than if we were just borrowing from a no debt position. That is why I think they've always been against further investment in Old Trafford as the cost of borrowing would be to high.

This is why I say with them as owners you'll never get out from under it and if they did sell whoever took over the club would then takeover the debt so they either pay it back to clear the loan or just carry on like the Glazers do.
 

IDFD

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The cost of borrowing is already ridiculously high for us. It's at 16.5% or something stupid like that.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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I don't have a problem with dividends or an owner investing in the club with an eye to making a return. Like it or not, we're also a business and anyone fronting billions of pounds will expect growth. It's the invest nothing, and take everything nature of the Glazers that most of us can't stand and want rid of. We don't need a sugar daddy or even outside investment. We need to stop the pillaging of club accounts and just be left alone to spend the money we generate.

The regulation thing is complicated because of the multi-national nature of football, and for a lot of the wage/transfer fee caps there needs to be an arrangement with governments. In US sport, a model which by and large has wage caps and controls in place, there are agreements that are collectively bargained with the players where they give up some rights in exchange for others. There is also an agreement with governments around anti-trust exemptions that allow monopolies and a set of owners colluding to fix wages/prices etc. I can't imagine the nightmare that would exist in Europe if similar was tried here, and as I'm not an expert in trade law, I don't want to guess about how it could work, but something needs to happen.

Ban clubs from paying agents, either directly or indirectly (eg., through players.) If a player wants to pay an agent 10% of any fee/wage negotiated on their behalf then they're free to do that, but it's not coming out of the clubs.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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I don't know if you remember the PLC, I do, fans moaned about that, and the Edwards before them. It's just the way.
This is fair comment. When it was floated in 91, they couldn't get supporters to buy shares. How times have changed.
 

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