Protest at OT - May 2nd

jsp

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Think you're making some pretty sweeping statements there Mr C there were certainly a mixture of ages and yeah some of them were very young and those doing silly things were probably caught up in the moment but the people organising these protests are guys who've been going home and away for a very long time.

Again you choose to focus on the 1% of idiots not the 99% of people who acted sensibly on the day.

Again you want them to listen well for 15 years despite multiple attempts from fan groups and now 3 protests we haven't even got 1 of them to talk to the fans. When they took over Gill cut all ties with the fans groups and only recently did Woodward look to reinstate those lines of communication through the fans forum but no Glazer has ever attended one of them although Woodward has. Woodward had started to build a bit of trust with the fan groups but then they go and do the super league plan without consulting fans just shows you why fans had been cautious about believing what he's said. Most of this good will was built up by him trying to work with them to improve the matchday experience at old trafford through the "singing sections" and looking to force through law changes to allow the club to install rail seating etc.

The Glazers know they can ride it out they think this will die down again in a few days like the other protests have and if it does then everything will just go back to the way it is. If this time they keep up the pressure something might actually change and as a club we might have to suffer a bit of pain from that but I don't think things will change sadly.

For a lot of those involved this is one last attempt to get them out if it fails I imagine quite a lot of them will pack in football for good.
 

Mr C

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The peacful protesters outside, I agree were the more older ones.

The idiots on the pitch, were younger.

Like I say, it's fine, if the fans want the club back, regardless of their position in the leagues and their financial status, this is the way. I remember the post SMB pre SAF years, it was pretty misrable :-D

If we want the club to remain an elite club, it's not the way for me. The Glazers will strip it of all it's assets and money, then sell.

Here's the thing, most of the big clubs are owened by Billionaires, are our ones any worse than any of the others, some yes, others no, or any potential buyers? They haven't spoken to the fans groups in the past, but now is the time to try and get them to listen, certainly that was the message from the manager yesterday.

I would love the club to be part owned by the fans, or Ratcliffe to buy them, but it's not going to happen, who is going to buy the club? Saudi's, do we want to be tied in with them? The potential clients for a 4 billion take over is very small pool. And it will probably end up in a repeat in a few years time. The fans didn't like the Edwards ownership either. So for me, we need to try and get these cretins to listen to the fans, and the fans also need to reign in their desires. We can't spend 100m on a stadium refurb, and buy players. So when Ole is 4th in the league all the Ole out crap needs to stop. Sometimes I think our fans want everything.

We need to get around the table with them, and have some sensible proposals and wishes. They will take money out, that's what they do, I think they take about 30m a year, that isn't much for our club, the debt is crippling us and needs payng off.

And don't take this as I like the ownership, I hate it, but I am realistic about who can buy the club and where we could end up.

You ask Newcastle fans, or Villa or any of these previous big clubs if they are happy.

They have invested in the playing staff, but the person in charge of that was a bell end.

All that's happened so far is our fixture list is getting worse, and our chances of a top 2 finish and trophy are getting slimmer.
 

IDFD

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The club earns less money doesn't mean the Glazers get less, it means the playing staff and facilities get less spent on them.

This is a key point. If the club is hurt financially it doesn't mean the Glazers are. They'll still pay off the interest on the loan and then pay themselves some money on top. The financial hit will be taken by the club and any money they were willing to spend on players.

As I've said before by all means the protest needs to happen. But don't naively think this hurts the Glazers at all financially. It's the club it impacts. The only hope is they say 'this is bad publicity enough is enough let's just collect on our profits and sell and enjoy winning a Super Bowl with TB14'

Though the question of are our owners any worse than others. It isn't even a debate. They're comfortably the worse around in football.
 

Mr C

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It does highlight, whoever takes over, will take money out (apart from if a company bought out) I knew that's what put Ratcliffe off

I was wondering last night if a clean energy company might buy them out, but flying around the world doesn't really tie in with that. But what a market for a comapny like that.

 

jsp

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I don't think our fans want everything they just want things to change we can't keep spending £50m a year paying off interest on the debt and never touching the collateral and paying them a dividend. It simply has to stop they are billionaires they don't need the dividends every year it can't keep being take take take with these people.

For 15 years they've ignored every attempt by fans for some engagement about what their plans are be that one that's been done peacefully or not so peacefully. The reason is they don't want to say it out loud their interest is to make Utd the most valuable club in the world and they have no real interest in what the team does on the pitch.

There are worse owners we've seen these lower down the divisions just full on asset strippers pick the club up cheap and rip it to pieces running it into the ground to make a quick buck and leave it for dead.

I do think the fans are facing a huge uphill task you have owners with zero interest in selling but can you just give up on your club or do you fight for it? Some people are prepared to fight for it and cause trouble and it may see them on the wrong end of the police but I think fans are so fed up with this ownership that they're willing to take a step into the unknown.

However, if the Glazers are "chased" out of town any buyer knows that they need to get fans onside because if they don't the same will happen to them.

If it is going to happen then it's going to have to be a long fight with sustained pressure so it will come down to how much the hardcore of the fan base are willing to do to get them out.
 

Mr C

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here's the crux

1% of china buy a shirt at 100$ , it's 1400,000,000$

a few hundred people at OT is going to do nothing. The only time they will sell is when the club has become worthless, and then it's a long way back.

That's why I think trying to get them around the table is the best way for fans for the Glazers, but most importantly, the team. The reason this was big news around the world is why they won't leave, the money comes from every corner of the planet. But all it done in reality is affect our chances of winning something, and put us on the news.

I'm telling you now, the only people who lose out of this are the fans and the club, the Glazers will not be affected by any outcome, they stay they get money, they asset strip the club and leave, they get money. They don't care if we end up like Newcastle as long as they've earnt. We, as fans, just need to be a little more clever.
 

jsp

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But this is the problem they have no interest in getting around the table fans have tried everything to get them to talk to the fans groups but they still refuse to engage because it is not in their interest to engage. Worth noting when Kroenke took over at Arsenal part of the takeover promised regular fan meetings. Guess how many of these meetings have taken place since the takeover? Zero! In defence of the Liverpool owners they've actually been pretty active in engaging with the Liverpool fans throughout their ownership for their plans to work they needed the fans on board but they've made mistakes and have been forgiven.

So until they come to the table and open up to dialogue then they should expect fans to continue to disrupt their business interests in every way possible if that means cancelling season tickets, MUTV subscriptions, Club memberships, unfollow them on social media, delete the offical app, stop buying licenses merchandise, bothering their sponsors, stopping them playing games etc etc then so be it. How long it will take before these efforts get the result who knows but it is the Glazers who need to reach out not our fans they know how to contact them it is on them to make the first step.

Our only real hope is that the government actually gets involved and regulates football to make sure these owners are forced to act in the interest of fans. If government regulation comes in they might decide to cash out and bugger off back to America.
 

Mr C

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But this is the problem they have no interest in getting around the table
You keep saying this, but that is the past, we all know what's happened in the past, the goal needs to be the future After the SL rubbish they have said they will listen to the fans, Ole mentioned it yesterday, they are not going to sit and talk while everyone is ripping it up. Now is the time to get this sorted, not fight them. That is what I have been saying all this time.
 

jsp

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You keep saying this, but that is the past, we all know what's happened in the past, the goal needs to be the future After the SL rubbish they have said they will listen to the fans, Ole mentioned it yesterday, they are not going to sit and talk while everyone is ripping it up. Now is the time to get this sorted, not fight them. That is what I have been saying all this time.

You judge people by their actions and past behaviour not what they say they're going to do. They have declined god knows how many requests for interviews, meetings with fan groups, attending the fans forum etc they have made it quite clear that they do not want to talk to fans and communicate with them in a meaningful way. At this point they have never engaged with the clubs fans despite promising to do this when they took over in 2005. They had almost no trust in the bank with fans before they tried this super league idea so now they are back to zero again as they clearly can't be trusted to act in fans interests.

If they want to claim they've changed then show the fans you've changed by agreeing to meet the fans forum or fan groups to discuss everything that has been going on and the plans for the future of the club. The people on these forums aren't radicals they are all long serving match going fans who have spent years working with the club to try and make it better so come on and talk to them.

They had their chance at peaceful talks a long time ago and declined it now they get the other side of it until they comes to the table to stop it because the fans know if we just go back to resuming normal behaviour then so will they.

If THEY arranged talks today you can guarantee protests would stop until we heard what THEY have to say the wall of silence is just encouraging fans to keep going and so they should. You can only knock on a door for so long before it needs kicking in.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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here's the crux

1% of china buy a shirt at 100$ , it's 1400,000,000$

a few hundred people at OT is going to do nothing. The only time they will sell is when the club has become worthless, and then it's a long way back.

That's why I think trying to get them around the table is the best way for fans for the Glazers, but most importantly, the team. The reason this was big news around the world is why they won't leave, the money comes from every corner of the planet. But all it done in reality is affect our chances of winning something, and put us on the news.

I'm telling you now, the only people who lose out of this are the fans and the club, the Glazers will not be affected by any outcome, they stay they get money, they asset strip the club and leave, they get money. They don't care if we end up like Newcastle as long as they've earnt. We, as fans, just need to be a little more clever.
The Glazers will not engage in dialogue with supporters. They haven't before, under similar circumstances, and won't now because you hit the nail on the head. There's more and easier money to be made in places like China, so why should they give a monkey's about the local support who hates them anyway?

I'm with @jsp on this, the Glazers need to go, and if that takes some civil disobedience, then so be it. While I agree that hurting the club financially hurts the club, and not the Glazers, the Glazers are only here for as long as they can keep using United like a personal ATM. If I own a sketchy apartment complex and I have tenants who keep paying rent, I get monthly cashflow and if I keep it long enough, they will also have paid my mortgage and I have a debt free asset. I wouldn't care less how upset the neighbours are, especially if this complex is in another country and I don't ever have to see them. The only way they could get me to sell is by breaking things around the property which costs money to fix and devalues my returns.

If we can make the club worth less and less, the prospect of a big payday diminishes for the Glazers and they would be more motivated to sell. It's not ideal, and it's a long game, but it's the only chance we have.
 

Mr C

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You're also hoping the new billionaire businessmen will be better.
 

jsp

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Who says it needs to be 1 person? If the club is for sale it will likely be a group of investors who buy it rather than 1 person.

Reality is they probably won’t go but they have to start talking to the fans and bring them along on the journey not constantly fighting against them.

What are the plans for the ground and the land they own around it over the next 10 years?
What are the long term plans for the debt?
Why didn’t they consult fans before attempting the break away?
Would they be open to selling shares to fans that carry some voting rights?
 

Mr C

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There are some quotes coming out of Holland tonight apparently from Edwin van der Sar refusing to rule himself out of returning to Manchester United as Ed Woodward's replacement as chief executive.

Whether it happens or not is another matter but I do know there are plenty of people at Old Trafford who would welcome Van der Sar's return to the club.

The Dutchman is one of the few people who may be able to get the supporters behind the club again given his performances for United, which included reaching three Champions League finals.

Van der Sar is also hugely respected in the European game after playing his part in the demise of the European Super League plan.
 

jsp

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If he’s willing to talk to fans it would be an improvement communication from our owners/board has been awful since the takeover.

Van Der Sar might help repair some broken relationships not just with fans but also the other PL and European clubs but I don’t see the owners putting him in charge of their investment it will be a company man.
 

Macariman

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Well Sir Alex released a statement on the night the super league was announced condemning the idea making it clear he was not made aware of these plans.

Sir Bobby is suffering with Dementia so you won't hear from him on the issue.

You also won't hear from the current manager and players and really the anger over all this should not be aimed at them they don't control the way the club is run they're just trying to do their best on the pitch with what they've got.

Plenty of ex players who now work in the media have come out and condemned the clubs behaviour over the super league and also the way the club has been run but these are the guys no longer on the pay roll.
Didn't know of Sir Bobbys illness, so please excuse my comment re him. Would still like to hear more from SAF, these protestations need a leader to orchestrate, so why not our most successful ever?
 

jsp

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Didn't know of Sir Bobbys illness, so please excuse my comment re him. Would still like to hear more from SAF, these protestations need a leader to orchestrate, so why not our most successful ever?

Well he kind of allowed them to buy the club in the first place by getting involved in a legal battle over horse spunk with majority shareholders at the time he then refused to speak out at any point over the owners.

He is not the man to front this campaign.

He has also had his own health problems in recent years.
 

Macariman

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Well he kind of allowed them to buy the club in the first place by getting involved in a legal battle over horse spunk with majority shareholders at the time he then refused to speak out at any point over the owners.

He is not the man to front this campaign.

He has also had his own health problems in recent years.
His health problems apart. SAF could show that this is the point where we have been subjugated to a horrendous display of oligarchy. If he resigns from the board and becomes a figurehead for what we all demand, he will have the immediate backing on an executive level who can take over the machinations and structure of how we must be rid of this cancer that has decimated our club. Every supporter worldwide will, hopefully, stand behind that protest. If it doesn't happen now, after what those bastards have done over the last couple of weeks ( and years) nothing will stop them!
 

jsp

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His health problems apart. SAF could show that this is the point where we have been subjugated to a horrendous display of oligarchy. If he resigns from the board and becomes a figurehead for what we all demand, he will have the immediate backing on an executive level who can take over the machinations and structure of how we must be rid of this cancer that has decimated our club. Every supporter worldwide will, hopefully, stand behind that protest. If it doesn't happen now, after what those bastards have done over the last couple of weeks ( and years) nothing will stop them!

He won't thought because Fergie likes his role at the club he knows the owners and they've been good to him down the years he might not have agreed with what they did on the super league but he probably likes being an ambassador/honoury director. Maybe deep down he feels he's the last sane football voice at that level of the club but he's not a decision maker anymore.

It's going to need government to put regulation in place to scare these boys off it's just hard to see that happening given who currently runs the country and their attitude towards regulation.
 

IDFD

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It's got to be a step in the right direction actually engaging with the fans.
 

jsp

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They had to respond and I really think they've missed a trick by not posting it as a video even if it's just him reading the statement fans need to see the owners talk and at least get an impression that they mean what they say.

To me it's just more empty promises of engagement they told us they'd do this in 2005 when they took over and they promised it again down the years but time and time again it's all talk and no action.

I do think the fans forum should thank him for responding and request that given the extreme circumstances that he attend the next fans forum and answer a few questions even if the questions have to be submitted in advance.
 

Mr C

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this is the way forward for me, I'm pleased, lets hope it's not just chat, and it can be a calm and considered discussion.
 

Cosmic Slop

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I don't buy a word of it. If anything, the Glazers will be sneakier next time. It reads more like someone upset at being caught more than someone who has realized what a mistake they made. To be clear: the Glazers and the other clubs were trying to create a closed NFL-style league, and as owners of an NFL team, they saw nothing wrong with the ESL plans. My guess is they still don't. The NFL is hugely profitable and the Glazers care about money, not the club or the fans.
 

Macariman

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I don't buy a word of it. If anything, the Glazers will be sneakier next time. It reads more like someone upset at being caught more than someone who has realized what a mistake they made. To be clear: the Glazers and the other clubs were trying to create a closed NFL-style league, and as owners of an NFL team, they saw nothing wrong with the ESL plans. My guess is they still don't. The NFL is hugely profitable and the Glazers care about money, not the club or the fans.
Well said comrade. To read such hypocritical tripe, from a newly self-discovered "humbled" billionaire, turns my stomach. That family have absolutely no feeling or care for what MUFC fans, worldwide, quite simply ask of those upstairs. Truth, honesty, strength and integrity. Our club was founded on these principles but, unfortunately, there's absolutely no trace of them from what we've witnessed over the last decade!
 

jsp

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New training kit sponsor has apparently pulled out of a deal to takeover from Aon.

New deal reported to be worth 200m with the HUT group was done but they’ve pulled the plug due to the fan unrest.

Looks like the pressure being applied to sponsors is working.

The club are massively beefing up the security around the ground a temporary wall is being erected to block access to the Munich tunnel from sir Matt busby way and stronger barriers to keep crowds away from the ground.

Can only assume those behind the first protest will be looking at stopping the team getting to the ground again.
 

Mr C

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Can only assume those behind the first protest will be looking at stopping the team getting to the ground again.
I hope they're not that stupid, the Glazers have said they'll talk, we have final to prepare for, and not enough days for the fixtures
 

jsp

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I hope they're not that stupid, the Glazers have said they'll talk, we have final to prepare for, and not enough days for the fixtures

If they want to talk then talk there’s plenty of time before Thursday to arrange talks.

Set an actual date for talks with the fans forum.

That letter stank of the usual empty promises we’ve had since they took over.
 

jsp

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No let’s force change I think as far as the fans are concerned balls to this season there’s a bigger picture to all this even if it gets us in trouble with the league.
 

Mr C

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Really, because i hear you and others on here talking about what you expect the team to achieve next year, that doesn't sound like people wanting the team to go into freefall.

The only way to get change is by talking, and they have said they would

Anything that's done now that affects the season would be awful for the players, Ole and any potential transfer strategy.

Let's see what they say at the meeting and do in the transfer window.

The best way to protest will be fans in the ground next year if the talks don't go well. Not terrorising players and staff trying to do their work.
 

jsp

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Talks are vital so let’s talk they are the ones that need to initiate talks not the fans the only way talks happen is through disruptive action.

If the team suffers as a result that’s a shame but again that frustration needs to be aimed at the owners. It’s quite clear that the managers/players can’t cool this tension.

All it maybe needs is Joel Glazer to agree to attend the next fans forum and answer some questions from the fans, that would probably be enough to cool tensions a little.

The letter was nice but it isn’t enough they have zero trust with fans we’ve been fobbed off before they need to take action.
 

jsp

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Joel Glazer will attend the end of season fans forum.

Maybe the sponsors getting cold feet has finally triggered them.
 

Macariman

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Joel Glazer will attend the end of season fans forum.

Maybe the sponsors getting cold feet has finally triggered them.
Yeah and the billionaire feels so humbled these days, he says he'll travel on public transport, providing he has the time to purchase the Manchester busses en masse!
 

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