Premier League 2023/24: Man United vs Arsenal - Sun 12th May - 16:30 KO

[jsp]

I could simply argue all of these mistakes are due to this new system and a lack of understanding about how to use it effectively. The system is known for giving up possession a lot of the time too, which causes even more errors. To gain any confidence in a game you need some time on the ball to be calm. Our system just doesn't allow for this, and for me is a major reason we've failed to win a game with any real confidence all season.

Imagine being a player under these circumstances and you quickly realise why they all look so bad.

A system doesn’t cause you to switch off when marking at the back post, not track your runners in midfield, not control a ball properly, not stop shots that are straight at you, not pass to team mates, not win your headers on set pieces, give away silly penalties etc etc.

Even if they change the manager which to me looks 50/50 I am not convinced all these players could adapt to a new system.

Some of it will be because physically they don’t have the engine for football at this level anymore
Some will be because technically they don’t have the skills required
Some will be because mentally they can’t handle the size of the stage they perform on
Some may just feel it’s time for a change in scenery or in the case of a few contracts expire and are not renewed or recent events mean they cannot return.

Even if ETH stays we may find the new management request a change to the playing style that will suit the players they are looking to bring in and trust him to implement that. They may think actually his style is the way to go and back him with more players to suit it.

 

[RichH2016]

There is a third scenario that I've already told you. He simply doesn't understand the CB position at all, as he's barely ever played there. I'm just looking at possibilities why it's gone so horribly wrong for him there, as it might not be as simple as 'he's lazy', you know? Casemiro doesn't come across to me as the type to simply just give up, and I think his performance yesterday other than the incident proves as much.

Then he’s simply a dumb football player because any one knows you have to get out! I played midfield and at times needed to play CB and that was pretty much rule one. Move up as a unit, communicate and get out!

 

[Jayc1860]

A system doesn’t cause you to switch off when marking at the back post, not track your runners in midfield, not control a ball properly, not stop shots that are straight at you, not pass to team mates, not win your headers on set pieces, give away silly penalties etc etc.

IMO it could easily cause all of that. Playing out of position really gets to people, I know this as I have been throught it when I used to play a bit. Imagine now playing out of system... and in a totally alien way. If it's not working you become annoyed, which then becomes frustrated, which then becomes not giving a damn. Which all equates to players being not interested, don't care and aren't giving 100% any more.

That will definitely cause you to swicth off.

Even if ETH stays we may find the new management request a change to the playing style that will suit the players they are looking to bring in and trust him to implement that. They may think actually his style is the way to go and back him with more players to suit it.

There is no way they'll back the 'Grand Canyon' system. It's suicide in the middle of the pitch where the game is usually won.

We're playing with a defence pushed quite far back in a low block, with one midfielder left in front of it, usually Mainoo. The rest of the players are at the other end of the pitch pressing like mad, and leaving the middle wide open. What is that, other than disaster when the press does not work?

They'll see this, at least I hope they will. Then they'll tell him what I've just said. The system will be changed.

I'm actually not totally opposed to ETH having another season as long as this system is gone forever.

 

[RichH2016]

I definitely wouldn’t take White over Dalot.

Partly would be absolute car crash in this United midfield! We would be on his back very early! I don’t watch Arsenal much but he’s always looked like he’s got a glaring mistake in his game - like the Bailly of midfield.

You wouldn’t take White over Dalot? Sorry bud but that kind of screams rose tinted glasses there. White has been really good and he’s a better player than Dalot. The gap may not be huge but he is.

 

[SuperRash]

IMO it could easily cause all of that. Playing out of position really gets to people, I know this as I have been throught it when I used to play a bit. Imagine now playing out of system... and in a totally alien way. If it's not working you become annoyed, which then becomes frustrated, which then becomes not giving a damn. Which all equates to players being not interested, don't care and aren't giving 100% any more.

That will definitely cause you to swicth off.


There is no way they'll back the 'Grand Canyon' system. It's suicide in the middle of the pitch where the game is usually won.

We're playing with a defence pushed quite far back in a low block, with one midfielder left in front of it, usually Mainoo. The rest of the players are at the other end of the pitch pressing like mad, and leaving the middle wide open. What is that, other than disaster when the press does not work?

They'll see this, at least I hope they will. Then they'll tell him what I've just said. The system will be changed.

I'm actually not totally opposed to ETH having another season as long as this system is gone forever.

There are a whole lot of excuses for these players which seem to absolve them of any blame!

The out of position comment can be levelled at Casemiro the last few weeks but honestly the amount of individual mistakes from players in their right positions has been bad this season.

Even if you’re asked to play out of position, then you give 100%. You don’t sulk, you don’t moan, you just play.

The manager gets a whole lot of flak and seems to burden all the blame but when someone dares criticise the players, then it’s not a fair criticism.

 

[Jayc1860]

There are a whole lot of excuses for these players which seem to absolve them of any blame!

The out of position comment can be levelled at Casemiro the last few weeks but honestly the amount of individual mistakes from players in their right positions has been bad this season.

Even if you’re asked to play out of position, then you give 100%. You don’t sulk, you don’t moan, you just play.

The manager gets a whole lot of flak and seems to burden all the blame but when someone dares criticise the players, then it’s not a fair criticism.

Well, I'm not saying they're totally blameless. I'm just saying all of the uncertainty hinders them quite a bit.

I agree - you should always give 100%. It's just very hard to do so when you can see the wheels falling off in front of your eyes and a stubborn manager just persists anyway. You can see this in his character and the proof is Antony. He just won't let it go. Even he still can't believe Antony deserves to play at this point. Yet, there he is either moaning, doing some face... or putting in another dreadful performance.

Imagine being around such a negative person, with no compromise in sight. It would get to me.

 

[jsp]

IMO it could easily cause all of that. Playing out of position really gets to people, I know this as I have been throught it when I used to play a bit. Imagine now playing out of system... and in a totally alien way. If it's not working you become annoyed, which then becomes frustrated, which then becomes not giving a damn. Which all equates to players being not interested, don't care and aren't giving 100% any more.

That will definitely cause you to swicth off.


There is no way they'll back the 'Grand Canyon' system. It's suicide in the middle of the pitch where the game is usually won.

We're playing with a defence pushed quite far back in a low block, with one midfielder left in front of it, usually Mainoo. The rest of the players are at the other end of the pitch pressing like mad, and leaving the middle wide open. What is that, other than disaster when the press does not work?

They'll see this, at least I hope they will. Then they'll tell him what I've just said. The system will be changed.

I'm actually not totally opposed to ETH having another season as long as this system is gone forever.

How many players have had to play out of position this season? Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof have all had the dreaded fill in at left back role and Casemiro has had to play a few games at centre half. This isn’t the plan but injuries have forced us into that situation and I don’t think players have tossed it off at the back most of them have tried their best in tough circumstances.

Even when these players were asked to play their natural positions in different simpler systems under the last manager they still made mistakes I think it’s just part of some of their games. It’s why they aren’t top players to many switch off in games and it does my head in.

The sort of disruption we’ve had this season does creates major problems in your system because it’s constant firefighting just as players start to click together another part breaks and you have to then fix that.

I just find it an impossible season to really judge anything sensibly because it’s been chaos caused by injury after injury to the first team and total instability behind the scenes due to the takeover. Clubs thrive when there’s absolute certainty and clarity of idea from top to bottom that has been lacking.

What you’ve described isn’t meant to be how the system works though if you have defenders who are brave to go tight and push high but we don’t. We retreat meaning as the midfield chases back to help the defence is getting further away. Other teams who play this way keep their line very high at all times it is only when the ball is played through they sprint back. As soon as we lose the ball our defence is dropping leaving huge pockets of space.

The midfield clearly hasn’t been right all season to often both are getting ahead of the ball to me a big no no 1 should always be level or behind the ball in possession in case it’s lost.

Set pieces are also a huge problem I think the team is to small a big thing this summer has to be finding players that fit the system but they also need to be able to dominate in the air, we are so weak.

 

[Mr C]

Casimero is going nowhere unfortunately, unless Saudi come. Bit the rumour is they will be looking at younger players.

However I am not writing him off yet, but if the manager stays, then yes he will be useless.

As for Hojlund, I don't think because we've spent 70m on him doesn't mean we don't go big.
Forwards win you games, Hojlund currently is way off being good enough, we need to invest here.

Mount we might be able to shift but lose some money.

Reality is, we are going to need to use some academy players.

And unfortunately a lot of this current squad, which is why I can't see ETH staying. He can't get these players playing.

I think our budget is 100m

 

[Jayc1860]

How many players have had to play out of position this season? Dalot, Wan-Bissaka, Lindelof have all had the dreaded fill in at left back role and Casemiro has had to play a few games at centre half. This isn’t the plan but injuries have forced us into that situation and I don’t think players have tossed it off at the back most of them have tried their best in tough circumstances.

Even when these players were asked to play their natural positions in different simpler systems under the last manager they still made mistakes I think it’s just part of some of their games. It’s why they aren’t top players to many switch off in games and it does my head in.

The sort of disruption we’ve had this season does creates major problems in your system because it’s constant firefighting just as players start to click together another part breaks and you have to then fix that.

I just find it an impossible season to really judge anything sensibly because it’s been chaos caused by injury after injury to the first team and total instability behind the scenes due to the takeover. Clubs thrive when there’s absolute certainty and clarity of idea from top to bottom that has been lacking.

What you’ve described isn’t meant to be how the system works though if you have defenders who are brave to go tight and push high but we don’t. We retreat meaning as the midfield chases back to help the defence is getting further away. Other teams who play this way keep their line very high at all times it is only when the ball is played through they sprint back. As soon as we lose the ball our defence is dropping leaving huge pockets of space.

The midfield clearly hasn’t been right all season to often both are getting ahead of the ball to me a big no no 1 should always be level or behind the ball in possession in case it’s lost.

Set pieces are also a huge problem I think the team is to small a big thing this summer has to be finding players that fit the system but they also need to be able to dominate in the air, we are so weak.

I have described the system how it's currently working out for us, not how it's supposed to work. ETH has failed to apply it all season long, giving up the midfield and putting us under insane amounts of pressure. The amount of shots we concede each game proves to even the most moronic of people that it's just not working. The players aren't getting it or the team/man instructions are wrong.

The best coaches in the world would realise this instantly and change it to suit the players he has. It's never the other way around and that's what I'm saying. It's all just problems he's made for himself.

I'm tired of the injuries excuse, you need to let it go. Coaches with the same problems as us would have simply used the youth correctly, and stopped having to be in a position where you risk your good players after they've just come back and it would have sorted its self out.

The point is, you adapt as a good coach, not keep repeating the same thing that is failing and I think in the end, that is what will cost him his job.

 

[jsp]

I have described the system how it's currently working out for us, not how it's supposed to work. ETH has failed to apply it all season long, giving up the midfield and putting us under insane amounts of pressure. The amount of shots we concede each game proves to even the most moronic of people that it's just not working. The players aren't getting it or the team/man instructions are wrong.

The best coaches in the world would realise this instantly and change it to suit the players he has. It's never the other way around and that's what I'm saying. It's all just problems he's made for himself.

I'm tired of the injuries excuse, you need to let it go. Coaches with the same problems as us would have simply used the youth correctly, and stopped having to be in a position where you risk your good players after they've just come back and it would have sorted its self out.

The point is, you adapt as a good coach, not keep repeating the same thing that is failing and I think in the end, that is what will cost him his job.

The system will only work with the right pieces in place. If you keep changing the pieces it won't work. At times it's been trying to drive a formula 1 car with tractor tyres on. Is it any surprise that the team is under performing.

When the injuries in the defence piled up again our end of Feb/early March he probably should have abandoned it and just played a safe form of football to get results but that causes big problems in the attack as we don't have a Weghorst type centre forward to play off like we did in the second half of last season. There's no guarantee the results would have been any better had we just gone more defensive and cautious.

I don't agree about top coaches changing systems this almost never happens they almost always stick to plan A and try everything to make that plan work. The squads they have are built for plan A so you often find they have a lot more pieces they can slot into it and make it work when players aren't available.

As for the injuries you can't ignore it because it doesn't suit your argument against the manager. As for using the youth Amad, Mainoo and Kambwala all promoted into the first team this season. Sticking 17 year olds who are not ready into the team is not the answer.

 

[Mr C]

All teams have injuries, it's up to the manager to adapt to suit.

It's a pathetic excuse to blame injuries. No point having a manager who can only perform if his first 11 is fit.

We all watched Palace, why was Cas in a CB again ffs.

I think not only has ETH proved to be tactically inept, his man management and dealings in press conferences is also pretty poor.

AND, He's the only person who can wear a Paul Smith suit and look like a dork! Who wears black shoes with a brown suit ffs......................

BTW it also suits your agenda to blame the injuries

 

[jsp]

The teams hardest hit by injuries this season are Utd/Chelsea/Newcastle and look where we all are in the league seperated by 3 points.

Teams are the top City/Arsenal/Liverpool have long serving managers where the entire squad is now built for that managers system. So they suffer injury the guys coming in are suited to their way of playing he isn't having to put a square peg in a round hole. That's the benefit of stability within a club which is something we haven't had for a decade.

Who should he have played instead of casemiro? He said after the game Kambwala wasn't fit to start and he felt McTominay was better deployed further forward where we also had injuries to deal with.

It isn't an agenda I have no issue if they sack Ten Hag if they feel there's a better man for the job out there they can get go and get him.

The brown suit was a letdown to be honest it's the first time I think his wardrobe choice has fallen short of the required standard he's normally spot on.

 

[Mr C]

Every Premier League side ranked by how much they have suffered from injuries in 23/24

It's no surprise Chelsea, Newcastle and Man United have all struggled this season

www.givemesport.com

so 4th, Liverpool ad Spurs not far behind.

It's no excuse, all those teams still set up with a system, even with the injuries

 

[Jayc1860]

The system will only work with the right pieces in place. If you keep changing the pieces it won't work. At times it's been trying to drive a formula 1 car with tractor tyres on. Is it any surprise that the team is under performing.

When the injuries in the defence piled up again our end of Feb/early March he probably should have abandoned it and just played a safe form of football to get results but that causes big problems in the attack as we don't have a Weghorst type centre forward to play off like we did in the second half of last season. There's no guarantee the results would have been any better had we just gone more defensive and cautious.

I don't agree about top coaches changing systems this almost never happens they almost always stick to plan A and try everything to make that plan work. The squads they have are built for plan A so you often find they have a lot more pieces they can slot into it and make it work when players aren't available.

As for the injuries you can't ignore it because it doesn't suit your argument against the manager. As for using the youth Amad, Mainoo and Kambwala all promoted into the first team this season. Sticking 17 year olds who are not ready into the team is not the answer.

If coaches just stuck to bad systems that were getting poor results they'd be sacked pretty quickly. We all know that. The manager/coach role at any club is a very precarious one.

I can ignore the injuries if I chose to, they're not a legitimate excuse for what I've previously stated.

Systems aren't player dependant.

 

[jsp]

Every Premier League side ranked by how much they have suffered from injuries in 23/24

It's no surprise Chelsea, Newcastle and Man United have all struggled this season

www.givemesport.com

so 4th, Liverpool ad Spurs not far behind.

It's no excuse, all those teams still set up with a system, even with the injuries

Have they included Toney and Tonali's gambling bans in the games missed figures?

None of these clubs changed the way they played or compromised their system because of injury they just had to work through the tough spell until enough of their first choice players were back to get results rolling again.

Also, Chelsea having 50 players on the books probably massively skews their stats.

Brentford almost getting dragged into a relegation scrap rather than being mid table sort of proves the point doesn't it that injuries are having a big impact on these teams performance through a season.