Premier League 2021/22 - Southampton vs Man Utd
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jsp
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Ole is always going to get criticism after a result and performance like that one. I'm not going to say much as I've only seen highlights of the two games this season but in both games it's looked to me like the same old Utd under Ole. We have a good spell then a bad spell and really it comes down to how good we are in the good bit on how the result looks. Utd have got to start dominating games and controlling them if they want to win titles get your routine wins and move on that is what the very best Utd sides did but this one always gives the opponent a period of the game where they really get on top of us.
Yes we've just equalled a record for away games unbeaten but I'm putting a massive * on that record most of those games in front of empty stadiums, we saw last season a huge swing towards away wins. Now the fans are back real football is back. These records also mean nothing to me to be honest unless they're set when you win the title as that is the name of the game yeah 27 unbeaten away is brilliant but in those 27 games our two biggest rivals have won the title so I know which part of history I'd prefer.
Team selection the Matic one is basically forced by injury he maybe could put Pogba in the midfield but I think vs Southampton he'd have got caught a few times in dangerous areas but I guess it's the risk reward scenario because no doubt he'd have also got himself through their press a few times and really opened up the pitch for us. It feels to me like Ole has really given up on Pogba as a centre mid though. The Martial one I'm finding harder to get my head around Greenwood had a good game at centre forward vs Leeds so didn't make much sense to move him but really it's on Martial who looked poor from what I saw.
Quite a few players need to take personal responsibility for poor performances from what I could see far to many played at nowhere near their best which is a worry after such a good win suggests to me that confidence remains fragile within that group.
As for the bringing up other managers it's always going to happen when other clubs change managers and it makes an impact like the one Tuchel has made at Chelsea because he is a very good manager and they have some very good players.
I'd say at Utd it's pretty clear we have some very good players but it's still up for debate do we have a very good manager? The fans obviously want Ole to succeed and he's put some good things in place since he took over it's in a much better position than he found it but there's still a lot of work to be done and Ole needs to keep pushing it forward.
Yes we've just equalled a record for away games unbeaten but I'm putting a massive * on that record most of those games in front of empty stadiums, we saw last season a huge swing towards away wins. Now the fans are back real football is back. These records also mean nothing to me to be honest unless they're set when you win the title as that is the name of the game yeah 27 unbeaten away is brilliant but in those 27 games our two biggest rivals have won the title so I know which part of history I'd prefer.
Team selection the Matic one is basically forced by injury he maybe could put Pogba in the midfield but I think vs Southampton he'd have got caught a few times in dangerous areas but I guess it's the risk reward scenario because no doubt he'd have also got himself through their press a few times and really opened up the pitch for us. It feels to me like Ole has really given up on Pogba as a centre mid though. The Martial one I'm finding harder to get my head around Greenwood had a good game at centre forward vs Leeds so didn't make much sense to move him but really it's on Martial who looked poor from what I saw.
Quite a few players need to take personal responsibility for poor performances from what I could see far to many played at nowhere near their best which is a worry after such a good win suggests to me that confidence remains fragile within that group.
As for the bringing up other managers it's always going to happen when other clubs change managers and it makes an impact like the one Tuchel has made at Chelsea because he is a very good manager and they have some very good players.
I'd say at Utd it's pretty clear we have some very good players but it's still up for debate do we have a very good manager? The fans obviously want Ole to succeed and he's put some good things in place since he took over it's in a much better position than he found it but there's still a lot of work to be done and Ole needs to keep pushing it forward.
Mr C
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I'm a huge Ole fan, he's doing a great job for the club.
But if he doesn't stop results like yesterday happening then he should and will get questioned. We should be winning that game easily. If you want to win the league you cannot be dropping these points again.
His team selection was poor. I see has to play Fred until the board address that position. But if you're not picking the two players you bought, play the same team that beat Leeds. Or change it positively. We should not be dropping a Matic/Fred midfield against Southampton. We must be more positive.
Martial should not have started that game either.
I didn't see it, but it sounded like Sancho came on played left again, when he should be playing right. I could be wrong there though. It was radio chat.
But if he doesn't stop results like yesterday happening then he should and will get questioned. We should be winning that game easily. If you want to win the league you cannot be dropping these points again.
His team selection was poor. I see has to play Fred until the board address that position. But if you're not picking the two players you bought, play the same team that beat Leeds. Or change it positively. We should not be dropping a Matic/Fred midfield against Southampton. We must be more positive.
Martial should not have started that game either.
I didn't see it, but it sounded like Sancho came on played left again, when he should be playing right. I could be wrong there though. It was radio chat.
jsp
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Just feels clear to me that Ole has decided that VDB and Pogba are not disciplined enough to play in his midfield so he's never going to put them there which means it's always going to be 2 from 3 and with McTominay carrying and injury he would always turn to Matic.
Maybe playing Matic was his message to the board of look I need another centre mid but if there's no money then there's no money. You'd hope that Ole doesn't need to play that sort of game surely the like of Darren Fletcher can see Utd are short in midfield currently.
I wonder if Utd have sorted another behind closed doors game this week to try and get the fitness levels around the squad up as really we need to get players like Varane, Sancho and Cavani up to speed as really two of them will be starting most games and Cavani will also hopefully be getting on the pitch at some point in most games.
Maybe playing Matic was his message to the board of look I need another centre mid but if there's no money then there's no money. You'd hope that Ole doesn't need to play that sort of game surely the like of Darren Fletcher can see Utd are short in midfield currently.
I wonder if Utd have sorted another behind closed doors game this week to try and get the fitness levels around the squad up as really we need to get players like Varane, Sancho and Cavani up to speed as really two of them will be starting most games and Cavani will also hopefully be getting on the pitch at some point in most games.
Against the better teams in the league and in Europe I can absolutely understand that. But against a team who are likely to face a scrap to stay in the PL this year? I think Ole has got to be more aggressive and actually for for the win. The fact he didn't even really change things later in the game and left VDB on the bench is just a sign to me that he's not going to take enough risks.
jsp
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Because the only 2 centre mids he had available are probably better known for their defensive qualities than attacking.
Utd need their 2 centre mids to be all rounders strong at all areas of the game for this system to work people get way to worked up over it being two defensive midfielders.
Where the issue was yesterday from what I saw was both of them were to slow on the ball and it meant Southampton were able to force them into mistakes to get the ball back.
jsp
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Had he played Pogba or VDB in that midfield yesterday I think we end up having the same problem their two striker worked their socks off and Utd had absolutely no out ball to play a bit more direct to get over the press. When we played out short not enough bravery on the ball turning back, rather than turning out to get away from your opponent this is a problem that maybe Pogba could have solved had he been trusted in the middle but I think he'd have had problems dealing with Southampton.
I think the VDB stuff is just obvious now Ole clearly doesn't rate him and lets be honest when he was played he's been pretty "meh" there's no real game where I've watched him and thought we need to play him more often. With Lingard it was a late sub bit of a punt chucking on a guy who's good around the box and a decent finisher it was a bit of a hail mary pass that didn't come off.
Southampton are a side that always give us problems their style works really well against us (apart from the 9-0 obviously).
jsp
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Formation is fine but I do think we need to find a way of going over teams that press us and being able to be a bit more direct at times by playing short from every goal kick we are really playing to Southampton's strength and playing ourselves into trouble. We need to be able to mix it up a bit so that Southampton don't just squeeze on us every single time our keeper has the ball. Martial up top kind of limits the option to do that as he isn't really good back to goal at holding up the ball like Cavani does and neither does he look to run in behind and turn the opponent defence like Greenwood does.
I just don't have faith in the midfield at all and until that is sorted this team will be a bit up and down.
Yesterday just looked like Utd at their worst a really bad day at the office all around but we got out of their with a point but it is a wake up call that this team still has these sort of performances in the locker and until it stops that it won't be winning the big titles.
jsp
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To put it simply how many of you would take a midfield of Fred and Matic over Romeu and Ward-Prowse?
This is a team that most think will really struggle this season yet they've got two centre mids that I think would probably start every week at Utd.
This is a team that most think will really struggle this season yet they've got two centre mids that I think would probably start every week at Utd.
And I think part of the concern here is that this has been a theme under Ole. They drop points to teams they should handle.
jsp
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He's in a tough spot in terms of the squad he's got players that the club can't shift so it's hard for him to probably make the changes he wants as moving players on has never been more difficult, Ole is no fool he'll know some of his midfield options aren't up to the standard we need them to be.
I think one thing that needs to be mentioned yesterday was Southampton's first game back in front of their home crowd yesterday so they probably had that bit of extra spring in the the step. Looking at the weekends results of 9 games so far only 2 away wins both yesterday with Chelsea and Spurs winning on the road. You could see they were bang at it yesterday from the highlights I saw of the game everyone looked by be bang up for it and Utd are going to have to learn how to handle that extra bit of energy that teams will find when they've got a home crowd behind them again.
Everyone will drop points this season think the big thing now will be make sure we get a win away at Wolves 7 points from 9 is a good start but 4/5 points would be dissapointing given the fixtures we started with.
I think one thing that needs to be mentioned yesterday was Southampton's first game back in front of their home crowd yesterday so they probably had that bit of extra spring in the the step. Looking at the weekends results of 9 games so far only 2 away wins both yesterday with Chelsea and Spurs winning on the road. You could see they were bang at it yesterday from the highlights I saw of the game everyone looked by be bang up for it and Utd are going to have to learn how to handle that extra bit of energy that teams will find when they've got a home crowd behind them again.
Everyone will drop points this season think the big thing now will be make sure we get a win away at Wolves 7 points from 9 is a good start but 4/5 points would be dissapointing given the fixtures we started with.
Cosmic Slop
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jsp
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Shouldn’t even be a debate though should it given the resources we have?
I’d argue that their pairing is better than ours on an individual basis but also as a combination that is how weak we are in this area at the moment.
City, Liverpool and Chelsea’s midfield will dominate those two
Cosmic Slop
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I have just finished watching the full match vs. Southampton. Fred is better than Romeu, and all WP seems good at is freekicks. That said, Fred & Matic together were not great. I think I'd try WP and Matic, of those options.
Anyway, the announcers said Lingard got 9 goals and an assist in 16 appearances for West Ham. How the hell is getting that kind of return in an allegedly inferior team? Anybody watch any of those? They also said we have only won 2 of our last 5 (now 6) visits to Southampton.
This referee was shit. I liked how in the in 91st minute Pogba had enough of Bruno getting fouled and immediately scythed down a Southampton player and got a yellow. Pogba sticking up for his teammates.
We were very unlucky. We had several shots cleared off the line and hit the post once. Even with a Fredmatic midfield we should have won. We kinda took our foot off the gas shortly after Sancho came on, ironically. Southampton's best spell was the final 10 minutes.
jsp
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It was more just a topic to think about than anything serious to kind of highlight that our midfield isn't really much better than what other teams are putting up against us every week. This weekend we go to Wolves they have Dendonker, Moutinho and Neves think all 3 of them get a regular game at Utd and that's another team that finished in the bottom half last season. West Ham Rice and Souceck, Leicester Ndidi and Tielemens there's so many teams that are stronger than us in the middle of the pitch.
I think Lingard benefited from playing the second half of the season totally fresh and he played in a position that suited him perfectly got on a bit of a hot streak early and he never looked back. We've seen these sort of spells from him before but his issue is his position is Bruno's so he's just never going to play. Utd should be doing everything they can to sell him this summer and cash in while the price is high.
mitchmouse
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I'm afraid Ole makes a habit of out playing guys out of position. I think he thinks he's more tactical aware than he is... sad to say it, but I just don't see Ole winning trophies - and particularly not the PL or CL
jsp
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Out of interest who do you think he's regularly playing out of position?
I think the second part of it is fair it is hard to see Ole landing the big prizes at the moment but that doesn't mean he hasn't done a great job in steadying the ship and rebuilding the squad in his tenure but now he needs to show that he isn't a weak point in the chain by improving on last seasons results.
jsp
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That's not playing people out of position though that's just rotating your squad.
Ole has said he's got a lot of players that he needs to get fit so expect rotation in the first few games every team will be doing it but really Ole was let down in my opinion my Martial who just didn't turn up on the day.
With Cavani back I'd be thinking let Martial play the league cup games and keep him away from PL/CL.
Martial's form is really dissapointing after that good season in 2019/20 where he really seemed to be back to the exciting kid we saw when we arrived he's completly nose dived again. From those who go to games they say he doesn't really do anything at centre forward anymore just stands waiting for the ball he's never really trying to to make something happen it's like he doesn't really want the ball.
jsp
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From memory it was that whole season him and Rashford seemed to be pushing each other along and both looked to be stepping up to that next level and fulfilling that potential we all knew they had.
Then last season he had a few injuries and just never looked like the player we had the year before his confidence in front of goal had gone. He was an ice cool finisher in his first few seasons especially one vs one then last season he started missing.
I'm just done with him you'll never be able to rely on him and the quicker we move on from him the better but he's on great money so same old story that he'll be a difficult one to shift out.
Cosmic Slop
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I think Martial has moments when he's world class, but those moments are eclipsed by anonymous displays. I looked up his stats to try and separate objective fact from gut feelings.
So, he's 25, still young. He's played 169 times in the league for us and scored 78 goals. I think double digits is expected from him but not much more. 12 or so goals. Is that enough to justify his place in the team? If he was also a creator that would be a good return, but I don't think he creates all that much for others.
His yearly league totals are: 17, 8, 11, 12, 23, 7, and currently on 0.
Goofy comparison, Ronaldo's totals were 6, 9, 12, 23, 42, 26.
jsp
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No point comparing him to the GOAT but he scores roughly 1 in 2 which is a good but not spectacular return by modern standards. For me as a centre forward you need to be over 20 in all comps consistently to be considered a good striker at a club like Utd as so many chances are created in a good Utd side. If you deliver those sort of numbers every season not many people will question your spot.
25 isn’t young anymore it’s your peak years the next 5 years should be him at his absolute best.
Steve Nicol on ESPN described him as a player that gets managers sacked. His point was the up and down nature of his form means you can’t rely on him. Not sure what it is with him has he got injury problems that are holding him back or is it a crisis of confidence as Ole has given him his full support especially in public.
Cosmic Slop
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That's why I had "goofy comparison", but I meant to show that Ronaldo's first 3 seasons with us weren't barn-burners either in terms of goals scored, and then the team was built around him and he hit unbelievable numbers. To what extent can we build around Martial, and should we? I still don't know what position he really wants to play. He was a #9 then shunted out wide. I don't think he's got the goods to play through the middle. I don't know what he is.
jsp
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I think he’s got all the physical and technical tools to play number 9 but just don’t think he understands the position.
He doesn’t work hard enough either pressing the ball out of possession or making runs in possession to exploit space to create chances.
He waits for the ball to much and only seems to want it into feet.
He doesn’t work hard enough either pressing the ball out of possession or making runs in possession to exploit space to create chances.
He waits for the ball to much and only seems to want it into feet.
Cosmic Slop
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jsp
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Well we basically turned into Wenger's Arsenal after Fergie left scrapping for top 4 every season and living in the hope of players fulfilling potential.
mitchmouse
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Rashford often plays on the wrong side, Greenwoood plays wide when even Ole acknowledges that he's our most natural goal scorer, Lindelof has been played on the "wrong" side of CB pairing. Sancho played on the wrong wing at Southampton. And that's a list without me even bothering to think very hard
jsp
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None of that is relevant to the Southampton game though yeah last season someone always got dumped on the right because we didn't have anyone to play there apart from Greenwood who was in and out of the side because of injuries and form through the season.
Lindelof plays on the right side of the CB's which is his position if anyone plays wrong side it's Maguire but Maguire has shown he's comfortable on the left side of that pair.
Sancho plays both sides and did so regularly for Dortmund so again not revelant.
Greenwood has two positions he's played most of his career from the right side so again that's not relevant.
I think it's fair to criticise Ole for putting Martial into the team on Sunday he let Ole down with his performance but everyone started that game in a position they are more than comfortable playing.
mitchmouse
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jsp
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So he's played there about 3 times since Maguire signed because Maguire hardly misses a match.
Not everyone will always play in their favourite position if we do that everyone will be on the left wing haha!