Premier League 2020-21: Manchester United vs Newcastle (Sun 21st Feb - 7pm)

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I think one point that gets lost in all this is, Maguire is the captain so shouldn't he be shouldering both more responsibility and more blame when the defense fails to do its job?
 
IDFD said:
Please refrain from personal insults of that ilk. Whilst you may disagree there is no need to call someone clueless. Just to try and get across why you disagree. There are more eloquent ways to put a point across.

It's a shame how much the defensive situation splits the fan base. I do genuinely believe in this instance he's copping a lot of flack because he's Maguire. I'd say as a defender you're probably going back to Brown and O'Shea in their early days before they were jumped on like Maguire and Lindelof are. Even the chuckle brothers got a little more slack.

People are going to see things differently at times. My initial reaction was where the hell are the rest of our defence.
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Apologies I'll try to suspend reality and see his point that Maguire should have broken the sound barrier, got to the by line, performed a full 180 turn before the ball arrived and headed it 40 yards clear :)
 
Both Sergio and Varane are better than Maguire...
...in their sleep.
Both might be available.
 
RemiMoses_82 said:
Apologies I'll try to suspend reality and see his point that Maguire should have broken the sound barrier, got to the by line, performed a full 180 turn before the ball arrived and headed it 40 yards clear :)
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Or just head it out and not into danger. Either work
 
Cosmic Slop said:
I think one point that gets lost in all this is, Maguire is the captain so shouldn't he be shouldering both more responsibility and more blame when the defense fails to do its job?
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Couldn't disagree more. You judge them both on their individual merit and performance. Not one more harshly because he's got an arm band on.

If AWB suddenly got given the armband this weekend you'd suddenly judge him more harshly?
 
I do think as senior player/captain he should be organising that defence better.
Maybe he's one of those players who finds the armband a bit too much. De gea doesn't do it either, so no one is doing it. There is no organisation

Whatever the problem, our CB's and GK are really struggling this season. That's plain to everyone surely.
 
And it's no more Maguire's fault it isn't organised as it is Lindelofs or Baillys. They should all do it.

Also I think people just forget how bad they are without Maguire and how much more organised they are with him on the side. Go watch the league cup semi first leg from last season. That's the reason Maguire hasn't missed a game since.
 
Also Lindelof and Bailly are senior members of the squad that should be stepping up and offering leadership not just hiding behind Maguire cos he's got an armband on.
 
So lindelof or Bailly should be organising the defence over the captain, who is a CB?

Unfortunately, for God knows how many seasons in a row, we still need buy at least 1 centre back. Awful job by the scouts.

If you're one of the top clubs, Maguire is available for 80m, are you buying him? It looks, at the moment, like a terrible piece of business.

If you could go back in time, knowing what you know now, are you buying him?

I have to add, so I don't get accused of singling him out, the same can be said for lindelof, rojo, Bailly etc. We would have been better keeping Keane and Evans probably

Maybe the coaching is just shite. But even still, they should be doing better.
 
And, De Gea should be doing better, organising that back 4 and making that box his, not hiding on his line pulling off reaction saves, which is about all he can do
 
Mr C said:
So lindelof or Bailly should be organising the defence over the captain, who is a CB?

Unfortunately, for God knows how many seasons in a row, we still need buy at least 1 centre back. Awful job by the scouts.

If you're one of the top clubs, Maguire is available for 80m, are you buying him? It looks, at the moment, like a terrible piece of business.

If you could go back in time, knowing what you know now, are you buying him?
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No not instead of. As well as the captain. Maguire shouldn't be getting judged more harshly than them just because he's got an arm band on. The CB partnership should be working together to be organised. But Maguire is the only one that does any of it which is why we are better with him in the side.

If Maguire was put in the shop window he'd be snapped up. Don't forget Pep bid £70m for him also.

If I was to go back in time I wouldn't have let Evans go. But I said that at the time. If we needed to sign someone and could go back in time we'd obviosuly make the VVD deal happen instead of turning him down to sign Lindelof. I wouldn't want to pay £80m for Maguire but i'd certainly happily buy him and partner with a fast CB. I've already stated I think he's in the top 5 defenders in the league.

And we knew when we bought him we were overpaying. But there's been no doubt that he's improved us defensively. As I said we are a shambles without him which is why he can't be rested at any point.
 
As much as I disagree, I do hope he comes good as you say with a better partner.

Currently, for me, he's not showing any possible way of coming good.

I imagine Pep is breathing a sigh of relief, especially as his history of CB purchases is pretty bad.

But as you said, we're not going to agree, at the moment, maybe something will happen for us to change our current views. And I do actually hope it's me :)
 
Mr C said:
As much as I disagree, I do hope he comes good as you say with a better partner.

Currently, for me, he's not showing any possible way of coming good.

I imagine Pep is breathing a sigh of relief, especially as his history of CB purchases is pretty bad.

But as you said, we're not going to agree, at the moment, maybe something will happen for us to change our current views. And I do actually hope it's me :)
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Maguire is comfortably our best CB, but again I doubt you know how to assess a CB so we'll leave it there
 
RemiMoses_82 said:
Maguire is comfortably our best CB, but again I doubt you know how to assess a CB so we'll leave it there
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I know enough to hold your opinion on anything with no regard. So yeah, leave it there

Great insight btw, Maguire the best of a bunch of bang average CB's. Bravo. Good knowledge
 
IDFD said:
Did see something amusing.

'I'd question what Maguire and Lindelof do in training but given they're marking Martial on a daily basis they probably go home thinking they're both Baresi and Maldini'
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Could say the same about De Gea must think his shot stopping is world class still when he does shooting drills with Martial.

Must baffle him in matches when strikers don't shoot directly at him all the time.
 
I'll take Rio's point on defending not going to argue with the great man on that front if he feels Maguire can head that for a corner then that's what he should have done but he kind of answers his own point in Maguire not wanting to give away another corner given the problems we were having on set pieces.
 
I'll argue with Rio. He says stuff and then when questioned on it backtracks all the time.

Savage makes him look a Muppet whenever they're talking. Recently:

Rio: Bruno is the best midfielder in the league
Savage: Would you say he's better than De Bruyne.
Rio: I'm not saying that.

Rio: De Bruyne is the best crosser of the ball in the premier League history
Savage: Better than Beckham?
Rio: It's different. I wouldn't say he's better than Beckham.

He likes to say things that make headlines with his statements. Maguire couldn't do anything differently and United need to attack second balls better doesn't make a headline. I can gaurantee you now that Michael Keane won't be starting ahead of Maguire for the Euros regardless of what Rio is smoking. He's not even been Everton's best English defender this season. That's Ben Godfrey.
 
yeah, I don't tink you could question his comments on what a CB should be doing.

Lets not forget, he's not saying it's an easy header. And as my posts above say, I think that's what he was trying to do, he took his eyes off it and it went the other way.

CB is looking like a problem area for England really, John Stones is doing well, but is that because of how they play?

I hope Maguire sorts his court case out ASAP and that sorts him out.
 
Yeah I've not watched it back 100 times like I'm sure Rio has but to me it felt like all he could really do was flick it on and hope it fell kindly it didn't seem to me like he could really angle it out for a corner. There is a thing with Maguire where I think he' a bit rattled at the moment feeling like he's got to win every header and clear every cross that comes into our box because he doesn't trust those around him. I've noticed a few times him almost gambling that Lindelof misses a header which then puts him out of position.

I think centre back is actually looking ok you've got Stones, Maguire, Keane and Mings that probably the best 4 we've had in a while, Southgate will be hoping that Maguire and Stones are in top form going into the Euros as on form that's a great partnership that should balance well. England have got a great chance at the Euro's but the concern will be they need the big hitters all in form at the same time and I think Southgate needs to be brave in his selections and not try to fit in all the stars to please the press.
 
Rio needs to be quiet like a lot of our ex players, get behind the team not piss on them, their time has passed and as Tony Soprano says "'remember when' is the lowest form of conversation". We could remind Rio that he didn't iron out his many calamities at the back until he was in his late 20's, how he lost the captaincy for disrespecting the club having dinner with Chelsea CEO and how he missed almost a year of football for missing a drug test. We can all throw stones Rio.
 
It’s not his job to be a Utd cheerleader he’s paid to be a pundit and be honest.

There’s no pundit out there who shouts louder when we are good and win but he also has to be able to dig people out when we lose.
 
jsp said:
It’s not his job to be a Utd cheerleader he’s paid to be a pundit and be honest.

There’s no pundit out there who shouts louder when we are good and win but he also has to be able to dig people out when we lose.
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Yea I agree he's paid for his opinions but in general there's a bit too much of the "back in our day" talk from our former players for my liking.
 
RemiMoses_82 said:
Yea I agree he's paid for his opinions but in general there's a bit too much of the "back in our day" talk from our former players for my liking.
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That is all pundits can do though refer back to their previous experiences when talking about what is going on now.

At least we've now got pundits who were still playing in the last decade talking about the game we no longer have the guys going on about how they all went on the lash every game because it's no longer relevant.

Rio is a passionate guy but you can see he's got Ole's back and he's got the players back but what he won't stand for is lack of effort or ambition by players as he knows that is not the Utd way. Like us he's frustrated a lot of time watching this team since he left because it's a shadow of it's former glory.
 
Also, he's got a point, Maguires form is not great, regardless of what people on here think. All the press and ex players cannot be wrong but a few fans on here be right, surely.

If he wasn't honest he would be out of a job. Remember how much the Liverpool bias from ex Liverpool players used to get on your nerves? Merson still cannot bear to have anything positive to say about United. It's just annoying.

Maguire is struggling, it's as simple as that. I understand Bailly and Lindelof did well last night. Maybe give them a go in the league as the other partnerships don't seem to be doing well?

We need a new CB without doubt, whether it's one to try and get the best out of Maguire or a replacement, I don't care, I just don't want this awful defending carrying on into next year.

How was Henderson last night, did he seem more in control of his box and his defence than De Gea? is that why that pair looked good last night? Would he help Maguire out in the league?
 
I just feel at times with Maguire the criticism of him goes a bit over the top because of his price tag which isn't really his fault but he does need to carry it because people will use it against him.

Bailly and Lindelof were fine but not really tested and Bailly and Maguire has also been a impressive partnership when used basically having a centre back who's quick on the turn makes a big difference to how the team defends. Also, having a keeper that's happy to come off his line for crosses also helps but it's Europa League in a game where we are already 4-0 up so it's a tricky one to judge.

Basically what we've learned is the Maguire/Lindelof partnership is a disaster but it's the only one the manager can rely on staying fit so he's kind of forced to stick with it.

Personally the obvious change to make right now is the keeper I think Henderson deserves a run of matches based on how he's played done pretty much everything he's been asked to do but with the centre backs he probably has to stick with this pairing for the rest of the season because you can't rely on Bailly.

I think we can all agree that Maguire is not a world class centre back but I maintain he's still a very good one and the best we've got so get another who's better than him and we've probably got a pretty decent partnership.
 
I think with Maguire, the money paid is relevant, you pay 80m you expect to be getting a very very good defender. Maguire has had a lot of backing I think generally, but there is no escape, his recent form is worrying. He's always been prone to making mistakes as any youtube video will show, but CB's do make mistakes. I just think he's making too many at the moment, his decision making is poor. Someone mentioned, this might be because he's nervous of what's aronnd him, and that might be the case.
I think I'd agree, change the keeper and see if that helps.
 
Mr C said:
Also, he's got a point, Maguires form is not great, regardless of what people on here think. All the press and ex players cannot be wrong but a few fans on here be right, surely.

If he wasn't honest he would be out of a job. Remember how much the Liverpool bias from ex Liverpool players used to get on your nerves? Merson still cannot bear to have anything positive to say about United. It's just annoying.

Maguire is struggling, it's as simple as that. I understand Bailly and Lindelof did well last night. Maybe give them a go in the league as the other partnerships don't seem to be doing well?

We need a new CB without doubt, whether it's one to try and get the best out of Maguire or a replacement, I don't care, I just don't want this awful defending carrying on into next year.

How was Henderson last night, did he seem more in control of his box and his defence than De Gea? is that why that pair looked good last night? Would he help Maguire out in the league?
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Yeah give Bailly and Lindelof a run, it's almost like the Mourinho years never happened lol. They didn't work and he wanted to buy Maguire in 2018, Ed turned him down sacked him then paid more the following year lol.
 
Mr C said:
I think with Maguire, the money paid is relevant, you pay 80m you expect to be getting a very very good defender. Maguire has had a lot of backing I think generally, but there is no escape, his recent form is worrying. He's always been prone to making mistakes as any youtube video will show, but CB's do make mistakes. I just think he's making too many at the moment, his decision making is poor. Someone mentioned, this might be because he's nervous of what's aronnd him, and that might be the case.
I think I'd agree, change the keeper and see if that helps.
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To me the money paid argument has to be directed at the board and the people who identified him and said he was an £80m player not the player he didn't set the price.

I try to take the transfer fees out of it when judging a player a crap player who's cheap is still crap shouldn't get them off the hook you should be judged by the standard expected of a Utd player.

Maguire measured against our greats doesn't stand up to criticism he's not close to the best we've had through history but I think he's a lot better than what we've had recently and overall been a good signed. However, this season he's had a few dodgy moment which he deserves flack for but as I constantly say defending is all about partnerships and the two we start most weeks is a bad partnership that needs to be binned.
 
RemiMoses_82 said:
Yeah give Bailly and Lindelof a run, it's almost like the Mourinho years never happened lol. They didn't work and he wanted to buy Maguire in 2018, Ed turned him down sacked him then paid more the following year lol.
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GA 2016 - 2017 = 29
GA 2017 - 2018 = 28
GA 2020 - 2021 = 32 with 13 games remaining.

Pretty sure Smalling played in most of those too. But whoever it was, clearly it was better.

However I would put that down to Jose's more defensive style. So I don't really see how you can compare. Mind you we did spend 80 minutes a game defending and conceding less.

jsp said:
two we start most weeks is a bad partnership that needs to be binned.
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It does, I don't care what trio start (including keeper) but we need to change it. But Maguire isn't a definite starter for me at the moment. I'd give him another go with Bailly, maybe then with Henderson. If it continues he needs dropping and another pair trying. We can't go into next season with this unresolved if we want to compete.
 
Mr C said:
It does, I don't care what trio start (including keeper) but we need to change it. But Maguire isn't a definite starter for me at the moment. I'd give him another go with Bailly, maybe then with Henderson. If it continues he needs dropping and another pair trying. We can't go into next season with this unresolved if we want to compete.
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Yeah change the keeper now see if that improves it and even if it does still get another centre back in the summer to play with either Lindelof or Maguire.

Think with Maguire it's just a thing that Ole bought him and made him captain so it's very likely that he'll be the last one he gives up on out of the 3 which is easy to understand.
 
I agree he's probably the best of the three, but he's not showing it at the moment. I think if he was dropped now he could have no complaints. But you're right, you're not going to drop your most expensive signing and captain unless you really have to, so drain all other options first.
Maybe this week off will help him, he doesn't get much rest so it might have helped him.

Although I'd settle for a draw, we really need to win on Sunday to cement our top 4 ambitions and confidence. I haven't see much of Tuchels Chelsea, but from I have I feel like we should win, and Ole beat his PSG team.
 
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