Is this "technically" the worst squad we've had in the PL era?

jsp

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So the PL era is now 30 years have you ever seen a Utd squad with so many players who can't handle even the basic parts of the game?

The game has never been quicker so you do need to be much more of an athlete to play it now than you did 30 years ago, the rule changes mean physical players can't get away with as much rough play as they did and the pitches are now basically carpets for 38 games a season no matter where you go in the league.

So now more than ever it's become vitally important that the basic skills we learn as kids are totally mastered control of the ball, passing, moving into space to receive a pass, getting your body between man and ball, turning into space etc. How many of our players can actually judge the flight of a ball to challenge for a header?

We have players in this side who can do things that are out of this world in terms of ability tricks, turns or shots some of it is insanely high level but the fundamental basic parts of the game like close control and passing seem to be lacking.

I've never seen so many players in Utd shirts that simply don't want the ball on the pitch. Utd sides for all those years of dominance always had players who would take the ball under any circumstance and demand the ball even in tight areas.

For years the crisp short passing was maybe taken for granted by fans like me who grew up on Utd in the 90's and 00's but watching this lot in the last few years it's been embarrasing watching them week after week give the ball away so easily.
 
I think we need stronger manager. We have a better side than we are currently playing.

The front 3 should be Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho, we should be getting the ball to them quick and attacking with pace. Because we don't have the players to control the middle.

The midfield needs strengthening, if we haven't got players in the youth set up better than we play then we are in real trouble. Taking away my doubt about Maguires ability. He should have been dropped weeks ago.

Ignoring the glaring problem about how the club is run, the managers are not getting the best out of the team. Consistently. Whether that means the problem is with the players who knows. Ralf hasn't really got a record at top level management on the pitch. So I hope we have at least targettted the new manager and are in discussions about what players he wants out and in. Rather than spending January money on players the new man won't want.

WTF is this 4222 formation!

We need to get rid of Ronaldo, Pogba, Martial, Lingard, I would aslo say Fred and Matic but we are so bare there. McTom should not be starting as many games as he does.

I'm assuming Ten Hag is gong to be the manager so I would keep Donny, sign de jong and even try and get de Ligt. Get some of that Ajax team that had such great potential back together is what I would looking at.

It's all very bleak to be honest.
 
That isn't the question though.

I don't think any manager can make this lot function when to many of the players can't actually perform very basic skills to the highest level required.

There's just to many players in this squad who can't take a ball under pressure and pass it to a team mate. That's a very basic part of the game if you can't do that you then can't move on to the more complicated stuff as you'll never sustain pressure on the opponent if you keep giving them the ball as you've then got to waste a load of energy trying to get it back.

Possession is so important especially with the way every team can now counter attack with quick players if you keep giving the opponent the ball eventually you will be punished. You can run around all you want but fundamentally the most important thing in football is can you look after the ball.

I'm talking basic passing ability I've never seen a group of players so bad at passing the football with the execption of Newcastle I don't think there's a team in this league that is worse at passing the ball than us. I don't watch every team play every week and I'd maybe add Spurs into that list to but the standard of passing between our players is awful.

Utd can't even move the ball slowly let alone move it quickly like the top sides can do it is abysmal. For me it's a combination of a lack of ability and a lack of movement from players who simply don't actually want the ball they stand in positions where they know they can't receive the pass.
 
When teams like city, liverpool, united of times gone by, get the ball under pressure, there is always an out ball, a player in the right area to receive the ball.

This is not the case at united, and that is a problem with the system, not the player.
 
Not always the case City players have the technique to make sure when they receive the ball the control is instant and the weight of the pass they receive and give is almost always perfect which makes it easier for the player receiving the ball. They create time on the ball with this and they also think incredibly quickly almost always making the right passing decision.

City make difficult passes look routine and the important thing is the player receiving the pass knows where to turn to find space all these players are signed because of their ability with the ball it's vital to Pep's way of playing. Some of that is down to the system but a lot of it is down to players seeing things quickly and making really fast decisions.

So many passes by Utd players are under or over hit meaning the person receiving the ball is under needless pressure, first touch of to many players is loose so it gets away from them they have to make a recovery tackle or stretch to make a pass. Utd players make pretty easy stuff look tricky and tricky stuff look almost impossible whereas City/Liverpool/Chelsea players it's almost the opposite

Everyone bangs on about how much Kante runs around but what gets ignored a lot is technically he is superb his passing is excellant, his close control is also very good so he can dribble out of trouble.
 
I cannot count the times last night they said there was no out ball for a united player last night. Loads.

It's the coaching. You really think these players cannot control and pass a ball. You think they would make it to the premier league if they couldn't? that's ridiculous.
 
I cannot count the times last night they said there was no out ball for a united player last night. Loads.

It's the coaching. You really think these players cannot control and pass a ball. You think they would make it to the premier league if they couldn't? that's ridiculous.

It's not just the coaching it's players making poor decisions.

Was the outball in reference to goal kicks? Utd have clearly made a tactical decision to kick long but De Gea's long kicking isn't great and in terms of who he can aim the ball at it's Sancho/Greenwood/Ronaldo/Cavani in those front 4 positions the only one of them I'm backing to win a ball back to goal is Cavani. Even then the stats prove the odds are massively stacked in the defenders favour on a long goal kick but Utd clearly don't have faith in playing short and building from the back as we get ourslves in so much trouble playing that way so we are prepared to take those chances and scrap for the second ball.

You then have players who when the ball is on the floor don't want to receive it. They don't move into space they stay hidden so the person on the ball has no pass or in the case of McT or Matic they go into the defence to get the ball under no pressure then play a pass that doesn't hurt the opponent at all. That isn't tactical either it's players not wanting the ball as they are afraid they will lose it.

There is obviously a tactical element to resolve but until you solve the technical element the tactics are pointless if the players can't even execute basic tasks how can you try to teach them to do more complicated things. The outball from a tactical point of view was with Ronaldo/Cavani up top you don't have anyone who's running in behind stretching the Wolves defence there isn't a ball over the top available to a defender/midfielder on the ball.

It's not that they can't do it. It's that they can't do it at the premier league level the margin for error at that level is tiny as the players are so fast they will punish every little thing you do wrong. These are lads who almost to a man earn more than £100k a week they are meant to be the best of the best but they can't perform the most basic of skills at the highest level.

I've played against a few pro players and they make everything look so easy they run rings around lads who play to a decent saturday standard but these were lads struggling to cut it in league two. Imagine how much harder it is at the prem level? It's an insanely high standard which to many of our players currently fall well short of.
 
Was the outball in reference to goal kicks?
Not really, it was more players taking pot shots when no pass was on, a couple of times. and players in the middle not having anyone around them.

They did also say the passes were making were terrible mind you.

I can't remember the last time I enjoyed watching or listening to united. I know most pundits love to have a dig at us, but it's open season at the moment. We are hopeless.
 
It's an insanely high standard which to many of our players currently fall well short of.
I don't thinks so, most of these players are international too. I think there is an argument to say our coaches present and past have not got the best out of them. I imagine they can all take a ball with players around them and deal with it under the right circumstances.

Have you any idea what Ralf is trying to do? I haven't. It looks like the same 11 players going out and doing what they want.
 
At the moment i'm not sure Ralf is sure what he want's to do. At first it was this 4-2-2-2 last night was more like a 4-2-4 leaving us woefully exposed both in the middle and down the flanks.
 
I don't thinks so, most of these players are international too. I think there is an argument to say our coaches present and past have not got the best out of them. I imagine they can all take a ball with players around them and deal with it under the right circumstances.

Have you any idea what Ralf is trying to do? I haven't. It looks like the same 11 players going out and doing what they want.

My point is more yeah they can do it to an ok premier league standard but they can't do it to a brilliant standard which is why they aren't cream of the crop players. Top players can deal with it under almost any circumstance that is the difference. I think we make way to many excuses for some of our players for me AWB/Fred/McT have all shown consistently that they aren't good enough at looking after the ball and all 3 start pretty much every week. Rashford is another I've never seen the ball bounce off players the way it does with this group it's really nowhere near the level we should expect from Utd players.

As for tactics it seems like it's gone from the 4-2-2-2 to more of a 4-4-2 system in recent weeks he's trying to make us a bit more solid and harder to play against but I think he felt the 4-2-2-2 made us to narrow. It certainly has felt like in the last 2 games and second half vs Newcastle he's asked the two attacking midfielders to stay wider in the first few games we were very narrow. Teams are still getting chances because we make mistakes but they getting anywhere near what they were at the end of the Ole era. Since we've got to the 4-4-2 we aren't see the full backs get forward as much as they did before as I think he's realised that's asking to much of the current players.

Goal Kicks we seem to be being more direct playing long rather than taking every goal kick short I think that's a clear message that the team is not good enough to keep the ball near our own goal. With this group of players that tactic has clearly been deemed to risky.

With the ball it does feel like we're trying to switch the play a bit more build up down one side then look to hit a cross field pass to the wide player on the other side and get crosses in but the delivery isn't always great and we don't really pack the box. The winger on the other side and the centre mids aren't really attacking these crosses so teams defend that quite easily. Sometimes the player receiving this pass uses the space to come inside and shoot it's a time old tactic but you need players who can hit those long passes quickly and accurately to the free player.

There's almost no link up between the forward players Ronaldo/Cavani rarely connect with each other, Cavani is good back to goal but most of the time he's playing back into midfield then the moves kind of fizzle out. Ronaldo makes good runs in behind but the midfield/defenders don't seem to be able to pick him out so he gets annoyed as he knows that ball has to come quick. His movement really is fantastic.

There is no pressing mainly because we never actually pin the opponent back to get us up the pitch and in position to press the ball you can't press to win it back when you give it away cheaply like we do.

Most importantly there's no real control of the game because of the sloppy passing teams find it so easily to get up the pitch against us so there's no sustained pressure on the opponent to wear them down.

If I'm totally honest I think Ralf sees the interim role as a chance to assess what we've got before the new guy comes he'll try and lay down some basic ideas and get the best results he can but his job really is helping us find the right man to take over and also to clear out the bad apples in that squad.

What has been notable is Darren Fletcher seems to be his right hand man in game I do wonder if he's being groomed to take over next season with Ralf going into his role as Sporting Director, almost a job swap. Could be reading to much into it as it may just be losing Carrick/McKenna came as a bit of a surprise so Fletcher is just filling in.
 
Teams are still getting chances because we make mistakes but they getting anywhere near what they were at the end of the Ole era
Wolves, not city or liverpool, but Wolves, had 15 shots at our goal in the first half last night.

I agree with most of what you have said, but I still think the coaches we have had haven't got the best out of our players, and we still seem to be a team of individuals.

Yes we are poor in the middle, defence is shabby. But with the players we have, we should be doing better. I think we should look like a team, even if it's a crap one. But we look like a bunch of lads who have never played together.

If we really want to challange, then yeah, this team is woefully short, all the back 4 bar Varane who is still unkown for now.
New midfield, all of the 3 can go. Rashford has dropped off and needs looking at. Ronaldo and Cavani need shipping.

Thats all the while losing Pogba, Lingard, Martial.

It seems like every year we say our squad needs an overhaul.
 
Wolves, not city or liverpool, but Wolves, had 15 shots at our goal in the first half last night.

I agree with most of what you have said, but I still think the coaches we have had haven't got the best out of our players, and we still seem to be a team of individuals.

Yes we are poor in the middle, defence is shabby. But with the players we have, we should be doing better. I think we should look like a team, even if it's a crap one. But we look like a bunch of lads who have never played together.

If we really want to challange, then yeah, this team is woefully short, all the back 4 bar Varane who is still unkown for now.
New midfield, all of the 3 can go. Rashford has dropped off and needs looking at. Ronaldo and Cavani need shipping.

Thats all the while losing Pogba, Lingard, Martial.

It seems like every year we say our squad needs an overhaul.

Yeah we were really really poor last night in that first half Podence/Trincao were running riot most of the shots weren't really threatening you wouldn't say they created a great chance where the attacker should be scoring it was lot of pretty tame shots. De Gea made one good save from a Neves long range effort but it was sustained pressure for most of the first half Wolves were attacking our goal it was maybe 10 minutes before half time where we actually managed to push them back. We really struggled to get a grip against the 3-4-3 system.

Utd just couldn't get on the ball every time we played forward either from a goal kick or general play we'd lose the first or second ball and Wolves would be straight back on us, they clearly came with a plan to exploit our system. Our wide players didn't pick up their wing backs and we couldn't win the ball back to exploit the space we didn't really seem to be able to identify their weakness and expose it. That said Wolves this season are insanely hard to score against they just waste loads of chances.

I just don't see why we should be doing better with what we have. These players have consistently proven they aren't up to scratch and aren't able to play as a team. Last seasons points total for me was a bit of a fluke we were not a convincing side for large chunks of that season but breaks went our way and this season we are regressing. I hoped Varane would solve the issue of Lindelof gifting goals to opponents but it seems Maguire has caught that bug now and to his credit Lindelof has been solid when called upon this season.

The squad problems for me aren't anything new I keep banging this drum but the outs are as important as the ins Utd simply have to get guys out of this club to make space for the new arrivals. We failed to do that and we now have a very bloated squad of unhappy players as they're not playing enough football but a lot of them don't deserve to play as they're not good enough.

For me there's enough there in defence and attack to work with but the midfield is a mess this summer we need to be signing 3 quality centre mids who can control the centre of the park against anyone. Pogba has to leave, Matic probably should leave and VDB probably should leave too.

Then it's just trimming the fat that's built up in the squad if we're backing De Gea as our number 1 then sell Henderson, Bailly probably needs to be moved on isn't fit enough and isn't happy to be a squad player and Jones needs a fresh start. A right back probably is required sell either AWB or Dalot keep the other as cover. In the attack Lingard has to leave, Mata has to leave, Martial has to leave, Cavani will leave and Ronaldo probably will want to leave.
 
I think United fans need to recognise and realise their team and squad isn't as good as they want to think.

It is the 4th or 5th best squad in the league in my opinion and are a million miles away from the top 3.

The GK situation is fine so no worries right now there. AWB is just not very good and Shaw is hot and cold for fairly long periods. You can probably win a title with Shaw at LB but not AWB on the other side. At CB you have a really overrated Maguire and Varane who needs time but hasn't shown his best yet. And the depth? Well it is OK at best at all defensive positions.

Your midfield is freaking atrocious. I mean how they failed to address it in the summer is beyond me. In my opinion midfield is the most important area of the field. CMs can literally make or break a team. United don't have one really good CM. Pogba is just not a top player in the PL bar the odd patch and he doesn't control games. United haven't addressed the CM position since they signed Pogba. Matic was a stop gap. VDB is an attacking midfielder. Fred is pretty awful. I mean I just don't get it. No quality and no real depth despite there being numbers.

Attack is potentially really good no doubt. Greenwood is a future star (hopefully). Sancho I'm sure will come good, he's such a talented player. Ronaldo is perhaps the greatest goalscorer of all time. Cavani is still a really good player and some of the young guys are exciting. Oh and of course Fernandes who's been a revelation. I have my doubts in terms of his consistency in that he's hot and cold in every game but he creates and he scores.
 
I think United fans need to recognise and realise their team and squad isn't as good as they want to think.

It is the 4th or 5th best squad in the league in my opinion and are a million miles away from the top 3.

United fans realise that. I've been telling you this for two years. And telling you to realise Ole has been doing a fantastic job. You wanted him gone because he wasn't doing enough with the squad at his disposal. Make up your mind.

Either the squad is good enough or Ole was doing a good job having them in second. You cannot have it both ways.
 
Technically as in ability on the ball it's as good a squad as we've had for donkeys years, including in the SAF era, but most of them just don't want to be successful enough, they're not prepared to put the required work in, always looking and finding excuses for their underperforming, and too ready to blame the Managers and Coaches.

Most of them just need a good shake(an hour with Roy Keane each would do) and reminding they are Premier League players on obscene wages and football is a simple game and if they need anything other than minimal guidance when they are on the pitch wherever they may find themselves or whatever the score is they are frauds/chancers, and need binning.
 
United fans realise that. I've been telling you this for two years. And telling you to realise Ole has been doing a fantastic job. You wanted him gone because he wasn't doing enough with the squad at his disposal. Make up your mind.

Either the squad is good enough or Ole was doing a good job having them in second. You cannot have it both ways.
Incorrect. Ole was not doing a fantastic job. He did a good job, he made improvements but he couldn't take the club back the the level they want to be at.

Second last year was a false position that benefited by other teams poor form and injuries.
 
I've been telling you this for two years. And telling you to realise Ole has been doing a fantastic job.
Have to disagree. After three years, all Ole and Woodward have left us is an unbalanced, unmotivated and ill-prepared squad.

Rangnick's got a big big mess to sort out.
 
Technically as in ability on the ball it's as good a squad as we've had for donkeys years, including in the SAF era, but most of them just don't want to be successful enough, they're not prepared to put the required work in, always looking and finding excuses for their underperforming, and too ready to blame the Managers and Coaches.

Most of them just need a good shake(an hour with Roy Keane each would do) and reminding they are Premier League players on obscene wages and football is a simple game and if they need anything other than minimal guidance when they are on the pitch wherever they may find themselves or whatever the score is they are frauds/chancers, and need binning.

I feel the high level technical stuff is pretty good but I'm talking the raw basics of the game close control and short passing standard I feel is lower than it's ever been in a Utd squad of players. As soon as the ball starts moving quickly amongst these players it starts bouncing off them and bobbling along the ground. I don't recall any of the sides in the 90's onwards where we regularly had 3 players on the pitch who you could say are at best average passers of a football.

Work rate seems to be a big problem this season the squads looked half baked all season probably the impact of 2 very long gruelling seasons plus the euros and also no pre season seems to have hit quite a few of our players hard. Under Ole this team looked pretty fit this season it looks like most players have got nothing in the tank even from the start of games. There were quite a few players under him who played a lot of the games and maybe that's finally caught up to them this season all those lads who were playing with niggles maybe haven't been able to go again this season.
 
the close control is a problem because of the systems.

It doesn't matter how good you are, you get a ball you need to know what you are going to do with it, you need to have an out ball. We get the ball and there is no one to pass to, so we lose it.

The squad is poor, but it looks worse because we have neglected the midfield again. You cannot control a game with Fred and Mctom. And until we get some decent midfield we are not going to get top 4. It's impossible to get a foothold.

Ronald was a mistake, as good as he is, it's clear to me he has upset the apple cart a bit. We were doing Ok at the start of the season. He needs to go. We need to address the back 4 again, but they are good enough for a top 4 finish. It's the middle that is so so poor that it makes the rest of the side struggle.

Fundamentally the middle is the problem. And the squad is too big. We seem to have an aversion to letting players go.
 
Incorrect. Ole was not doing a fantastic job. He did a good job, he made improvements but he couldn't take the club back the the level they want to be at.

Second last year was a false position that benefited by other teams poor form and injuries.

This false position thing is nonsense. The old saying is the table doesn't lie. He had the team at a higher level than the other two teams. Did they have better squads. Yes. Did Ole manage to get more out of his squad than the other two? Yes.

To claim false positions because of injury and poor form, we should never play a game of football or bother with the game itself. Wouldn't want poor form effecting anyone just lay the table as you think it should start.

Those saying Ole left the club is a mess. It's in a much better place than when he joined.
 
Incorrect. Ole was not doing a fantastic job. He did a good job, he made improvements but he couldn't take the club back the the level they want to be at.

Second last year was a false position that benefited by other teams poor form and injuries.
I have to agree with IDFD on this. There are no false positions, we got there because we were the second best team in the league, you can’t just say it was a false position because everyone else had injuries and poor form. By your logic City coming first was a false position because of other teams below them having poor form and injuries.
 
Livepool did have an injury to a key player. And it was predicted that they would drop last year due to the rumoured caffeine thing they use. They needed to take a year off last year. If the rumours are correct.

Also Chelsea had a manager who wasn't good enough for a part of the season.

But the table doesn't lie, he beat most of what was in front of him, he did really well to get second, but we did have a fair bit of luck along the way. We never really looked convincing for sustained periods.

I loved Ole, he did a fantastic job, and no doubt the players, but especially the board let him down. Why sign Ronaldo when it was clear Rice or similar would have been better. Ronaldo's wages could have easily funded a deal for midfield player, or two.

No doubt, some of this team looks poor because there is not the support in the middle of the park. They are not free to do their thing.
 
You guys are amusing. Wasn't a false position despite a number of analysts and reporters recognising that it was. That the empty stadiums, key injuries to the Liverpool team, Chelsea struggles led to a false position.

Don't confuse false with undeserved. United deserved to finish second last year. They handled the situation better than 18 other teams. But you were all fooled in to thinking this was a team ready to compete for the title. Because when you finish second the natural improvement is to target first. To target first and if not then at least get closer to first.
 
What we've basically seen is things can fall apart very quickly at this club the last two times we've had a manager finish second in the league he's been sacked within 6 months as the team has tanked the following season.

I do think if Liverpool had avoided their injury crisis last season form suggests they'd have finished second but they did get injuries and didn't so it's wrong to re-write history. I do think last season was a season where City were vulnerable to a challenger but it fells like Pep's reshaped that side again from the one that won back to back titles so they're going to be tought to beat over the next few years. They don't have to many ageing players and if they land Haaland we're screwed.

Overall I don't think you can call Ole's reign a success he didn't deliver a trophy but I do think he improved things for a long time it was all positive but at the point he's been sacked it's hard not to feel everything feels like it did when Jose was sacked. Fan base divided and a very unpopular playing squad.
 
I think Ole over-achieved with this squad. He's a good man-manager and I think his approach worked with the players who bought into his "United DNA" thing. Everyone in the squad is a good player, and Ole made them a good team. The problem is that it was a fragile team, and it only took one or two malingering players to cause it to crumble. There was a drop in quality from the starting XI so if one was out injured/suspended, the balance was way off. The better, more tactically astute managers, were easily able to exploit our team's weaknesses, and teams that sat low were puzzles Ole couldn't work out.

This is as everyone said from Day 1 of Ole's reign: good manager (or adequate manager) and good squad, but neither were great and neither would achieve greatness or win anything. Klopp, Pep, Tuchel would have had this same team playing more coherent football but this team would not have overtaken City or even Liverpool.

The best teams have solid players in every position plus a few flair or exceptional players. Not everyone in Liverpool were Salah, they had some workhorses in there too (cf. Henderson). City was probably overly stacked with excellent players due to City not giving a damn about FFP and the league not caring enough to reel them in.

For a number of years when United was at its peak recently, I think we could have made cases for almost every player in the staring XI being the best in their position in the league. Partisans might not think Scholes was the best in his position, for instance, but he really was. Same with Beckham, not overall the best footballer but in his position and for what he was able to unlock from the rest of the team, he was the best in that role. Ruud, Pallister, Konchelskis, Rooney, Giggs, I mean c'mon, the United sides were the envy of everyone.

In this current era, the only way to match those star-studded sides is to outspend City, and that isn't going to happen. The only way to outfight Pep/Klopp is to get Pep or Klopp to tell you how to beat them. We are left in the reality that our side is never going to be better man-for-man than City's, and our manager is probably never going to better than Pep or Klopp. Ole was far, far down the list of great managers from those two and our players were also far down the list, but we did have some standout talents (Pogba) who just couldn't be harnessed correctly for a myriad of reasons.

In that sense, I think we overachieved coming in 2nd. We had some luck. We took our chances. We didn't romp to 2nd but somehow found ourselves there at the end of the season. When the squad started looking tired and the opposition managers sussed how to beat Ole, Ole did not have any comeback. He had not rejoinder to the conversation. Maybe that's what caused the players' heads to drop: once they know they are not going to be champions and the chance to become champions has disappeared, they have to be made to understand that they are still playing for pride and honor and the paying fans, and I don't think some of the big egos in our squad care about that stuff.
 
I feel the high level technical stuff is pretty good but I'm talking the raw basics of the game close control and short passing standard I feel is lower than it's ever been in a Utd squad of players. As soon as the ball starts moving quickly amongst these players it starts bouncing off them and bobbling along the ground. I don't recall any of the sides in the 90's onwards where we regularly had 3 players on the pitch who you could say are at best average passers of a football.

Work rate seems to be a big problem this season the squads looked half baked all season probably the impact of 2 very long gruelling seasons plus the euros and also no pre season seems to have hit quite a few of our players hard. Under Ole this team looked pretty fit this season it looks like most players have got nothing in the tank even from the start of games. There were quite a few players under him who played a lot of the games and maybe that's finally caught up to them this season all those lads who were playing with niggles maybe haven't been able to go again this season.

I think a lot of that is just down to confidence, and if you're not 100% fit, and you've got it in your head you're not sure about the tactics your control/passing can go to pieces quite quickly, and the more you try to rectify it the worse it seems to get. We just need a rapid counter attack goal where everybodies first touch is bang on and that should hopefully sort it, Monday would be nice.

Not sure about that, G Nev, Vida, JSP, Yorke, Cole, RvN and a whole lot more were never anything to write home about when it came to passing.
 
I think a lot of that is just down to confidence, and if you're not 100% fit, and you've got it in your head you're not sure about the tactics your control/passing can go to pieces quite quickly, and the more you try to rectify it the worse it seems to get. We just need a rapid counter attack goal where everybodies first touch is bang on and that should hopefully sort it, Monday would be nice.

Not sure about that, G Nev, Vida, JSP, Yorke, Cole, RvN and a whole lot more were never anything to write home about when it came to passing.

I just think there’s a few players who I’ve never seen deliver those skills to the elite standard required AWB, Fred and McTominay. Confidence is a huge factor especially a player like Rashford the difference between him at his best and worst is crazy but Rooney could also be a bit like that. But even at their best those other 3 I don’t think ever look 100% comfortable with the ball they treat it like a hot potato rather than enjoy time with the ball.

I’d agree none of them had a particularly great range of passing hit long balls but all had good enough short passing skills for the eras they played in because the game is different now. Cole for example rarely got involved in build up play he was a finisher same way Ruud was but Yorke was a very clever player great close control, vision and could thread the needle with passes surprised you named him.

Vidic fair but he had a solid enough game to get by and he wasn’t really asked to be a playmaker his job was short pass to Rio or Carrick or Scholes to get us playing.
 
I think all three lads you named are better than they are given credit for, particularly McTom and Fred who are often up against 3 and they get little or no movement ahead of them and a back 4 who only make themselves available as an after thought, so it shouldn't be a surprise they rarely dominate midfield - in a confident winning team their qualities would be more obvious.

Yorke's link up lay with Cole at times was magical, but his short game at times with other teammates was poor, and for somebody that was said to have a football brain he did everything possible to hinder Ryan Gigg's sensational goal FA Cup semi-final winning goal by making two runs each which took more defenders into Ryan's path instead off pulling them away.

Vida is the best six-yard box defender i've ever seen at United, ahead of Kevin Moran and Steve Bruce, and yeah he did have a solid enough passing game but when we signed him I hoped he'd be like the numerous players from that part of the world who were not only no-nonsense defenders but also elegant ball passers and carriers. Still a top player though, but not sure he'd have been as appreciated if he was if he had to play in the current team.
 

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