Fred-McTominay

jsp

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I think both Fred and McT are being deployed in a way that highlights their weaknesses. If a manager were able to use them to complete a midfield puzzle, they both might seem better. I don't know what team Fred would need to be in, maybe it's the Brazil national side, but McTominay I think could be a box to box player if he had the right team around him.

If either of these lads played for other clubs no Utd fan would want to sign them it’s the simple for me.

We can make excuses for them but both are just at best average central midfield players
 

Justin Cider

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1st of all congratulations to CR. Extending his WR for international goals, 10th hat-trick for his country, the guy's a freak of nature.

Don't suppose many of u had to endure watching Scotland's WC quals, lucky u.
We speak of Utd's lack of quality in DM and deservedly so.
McFred r certainly nowhere near good enough. Invariably Fred takes most of the lambasting and disparaging but if u consider McT's international performances, I'd say embarrassing is an understatement.
Playing against the mighty powerhouses in world football that Israel and Faroe Islands r, he should be hanging his head in shame.
1st game playing on the RH side of a back 3, I don't know how many times he was caught in possession, out of position and most of his attempted passes went straight to an Israeli or straight out of play? The amount of needless free-kicks he gave away around the 18 yard box, I lost count of. How can a guy 6ft 4 be beaten in the air by a striker a good 6 inches smaller, on just about every occasion? again, far outwith my comprehension. Scored the winning goal yes but from a distance of a yard or so from the line, even impossible for him to miss, well maybe?
The 2nd game playing in the position he does for Utd, he put in an abysmal performance, as did all his fellow compatriots, no let me take that back. He is English, if only Southgate had selected him before we did!
Every time he had the ball at his feet, I was very concerned. On 1 occasion, from a free-kick about 30 yards out he somehow he was.somehow.allowed to take it. How the f#$! the capt Robertson could allow this with McGinn on the pitch, I'll never know? Anyway the bold Scott unleashed an astonishing attempt that no, didn't hit row Z but I'm sure had the folk sitting in rows S, T and U ducking for cover.
Twice thru on goal, made the most pitiful efforts. 1 straight at the keeper, who could have quite easily have tied his bootlaces before picking the ball up. The 2nd defied belief. Around 12 yards out he somehow managed to put it just wide of the 6 yard box.
By far the worst man on the pitch.
When thinking that he's a constant starter for MUFC, leaves me baffled and furious.
The guy is not only a shocking football player but an embarrassment to the famous Red jersey.
Yes, DM is certainly a major problem for Utd but if Ole continues with this pairing then I can see absolutely nothing coming our way in the near future!

That's brutal, guessing you're not okay with those not born in Scotland representing the National team?
 

Cosmic Slop

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If either of these lads played for other clubs no Utd fan would want to sign them it’s the simple for me.

We can make excuses for them but both are just at best average central midfield players
I'm still holding out hope that McT can become a marauding box to box player if he has someone next to him who can look after the ball in tight spaces and pick out an intelligent pass.
 

Justin Cider

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If either of these lads played for other clubs no Utd fan would want to sign them it’s the simple for me.

We can make excuses for them but both are just at best average central midfiel

Mock all you will, with McTom and Fred playing we wouldn't have lost yesterday. I'm certain of that.

And no I can't prove it. Living in the Twitter Age.
 

jsp

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Mock all you will, with McTom and Fred playing we wouldn't have lost yesterday. I'm certain of that.

And no I can't prove it. Living in the Twitter Age.

Not sure last time we played Leicester away Fred pretty much scored their opening goal for them and Tielemens ripped as apart that day too.

Yesterday was more about an absolute disaster performance from Maguire than it was about midfield
 

Justin Cider

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Not sure last time we played Leicester away Fred pretty much scored their opening goal for them and Tielemens ripped as apart that day too.

Yesterday was more about an absolute disaster performance from Maguire than it was about midfield

Can understand why Ole rushed Maguire back with Varane being out, but it backfired big style yesterday, that was probably his worst performance in a red shirt, not that he was helped by De Gea and Shaw who were both sloppy with their passing putting him under pressure needlessly time and time again, or the two tasked with offering protection in front of him who were both poor, and that's being kind.

We either give Matic some stamina improving drugs intravenously and Pogba a Sat Nav or carry on with McTom and Fred until Ole sorts the midfield out over the next two windows. Who those players are I don't know, let's hope Ole and the scouts do.
 

Macariman

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Have I left you speechless @Macariman ? :)
Have I left you speechless @Macariman ? :)
Indeed u have not. I've been given 2 yellow cards from the forum. I'm praying for my 3rd.
If the best Utd have to offer is this midfield formation, with these 2 playing in those positions, christ help us.
I really can't see or imagine what our current format will bring us?
 

jsp

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Indeed u have not. I've been given 2 yellow cards from the forum. I'm praying for my 3rd.
If the best Utd have to offer is this midfield formation, with these 2 playing in those positions, christ help us.
I really can't see or imagine what our current format will bring us?

Thought you'd been quiet.

It's depressing but this is the best we've got for now and Scholes was quite good after the game last night highlighting how first half these two had no chance we had four lads up front none showing for a ball into feet and none really busting a gut to get back behind the ball when we lost it.

Second half when Bruno came a bit deeper they found it a lot easier to play and get a pass into the attack.

Opposition wasn't great last night though they're clearly a good side but they were missing 5 players, started their best forward on the bench and only filled half the bench the weekend will be a much tougher task give Liverpool a 2-0 lead and it's game over.

Personally for Liverpool I think he's got to change it sacrifice his number 10 and get an extra man in the midfield go 3 vs 3 against the scousers and try to match their work rates as I don't think they've got much better quality than us in midfield they just all work their nuts off every game. Even if it's just giving Bruno a more defensive role we can't have him standing around up front while Fred/McTominay try and cover the entire length and width of the pitch on their own.
 

Macariman

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Indeed u have not. I've been given 2 yellow cards from the forum. I'm praying for my 3rd.
If the best Utd have to offer is this midfield formation, with these 2 playing in those positions, christ help us.
I really can't see or imagine what our current format will bring us?

I'm still holding out hope that McT can become a marauding box to box player if he has someone next to him who can look after the ball in tight spaces and pick out an intelligent pass.
Look, that's not a case of irrational, it borders on insanity
The guy has nothing to offer Utd apart from perennial also rans!
If u/we want to see Utd playing and being where they should be, he doesn't come in to it
 

Macariman

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Thought you'd been quiet.

It's depressing but this is the best we've got for now and Scholes was quite good after the game last night highlighting how first half these two had no chance we had four lads up front none showing for a ball into feet and none really busting a gut to get back behind the ball when we lost it.

Second half when Bruno came a bit deeper they found it a lot easier to play and get a pass into the attack.

Opposition wasn't great last night though they're clearly a good side but they were missing 5 players, started their best forward on the bench and only filled half the bench the weekend will be a much tougher task give Liverpool a 2-0 lead and it's game over.

Personally for Liverpool I think he's got to change it sacrifice his number 10 and get an extra man in the midfield go 3 vs 3 against the scousers and try to match their work rates as I don't think they've got much better quality than us in midfield they just all work their nuts off every game. Even if it's just giving Bruno a more defensive role we can't have him standing around up front while Fred/McTominay try and cover the entire length and width of the pitch on their own.
Very wise words comrade, Scholes gave us all a direct, emotional and expert, not opinion, but brave telling of what should be happening as opposed to what really is.
In today's media and punditry, who's do u value the most?
To say we're imbalanced is an understatement. To hope we shall always allow the opponents to take the lead but we'll fight it back because we're MUFC, is preposterous. To go 20 games with only 1 clean sheet and still be a force to be reckoned with is fantasy.
We r In a very poor shape as.it happens, and Pogba was correct at the weekend, serious changes have to be made.
But I must ask u, is the glass half empty or full?
I was asked this question a few months ago. My reply was, has someone turned on the tap yet! I expect and demand that MUFC r not in this dreadful situation where it should even be discussed
 

jsp

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Very wise words comrade, Scholes gave us all a direct, emotional and expert, not opinion, but brave telling of what should be happening as opposed to what really is.
In today's media and punditry, who's do u value the most?
To say we're imbalanced is an understatement. To hope we shall always allow the opponents to take the lead but we'll fight it back because we're MUFC, is preposterous. To go 20 games with only 1 clean sheet and still be a force to be reckoned with is fantasy.
We r In a very poor shape as.it happens, and Pogba was correct at the weekend, serious changes have to be made.
But I must ask u, is the glass half empty or full?
I was asked this question a few months ago. My reply was, has someone turned on the tap yet! I expect and demand that MUFC r not in this dreadful situation where it should even be discussed

If it was still his first 12-18 months in change I'd say still half full but it's now 2 1/2 seasons in we really should be seeing something better than this in terms of structure within the team. It feels to me a bit like Van Gaal's last 6 months at this point we all know it's over there will be a few buzzes along the way but it just feels like we're dragging out the inevitable. Unlike Mourinho Ole isn't going to force the issue by just burning the whole place to the ground in public to force the club into sacking him. With me I'd say it started half empty with Ole I never really saw it with him but now it's empty which is sad because he's such a great bloke and I do think he's done a lot of good work rebuilding the club.

Last night Ole even said before the game it was 4-2-4 and it really was the team was so stretched the forward were basically a straight line of 4 with the full backs weren't quite as attacking but the gap between the defence and attack was huge the midfield stood no chance. You can't be giving teams at this level that much space even a half decent prem side will exploit this it's why that formation isn't used anymore by anyone. Second half it seemed to work better Bruno dropped off that forward line and created that link that was missing and we absolutely pulled them to pieces and there was a noticeable rise in effort possibly because for the first time the boo's were out at half time.

The only thing I'd say on Scholes is I think he gives Pogba to much credit I understand 100% what he says about him needing a player next to him in his hear keeping him on a leash but he's 28 now if he hasn't learned yet he never will and Scholes pretty much hinted the same. It's why you just can't trust him in there. At the top level should you really need to have someone talking their team mate through the game? Especially a guy who is apparently being offered £400k a week to stay?

Scholes did say he's a McTominay fan he seems to really like him but I don't really see it got a good engine on him but looks lost a lot of the time he didn't really come through as a centre mid he was an attacking player and I don't think he's fully mastered the roll yet and he's now into his 4th season as a senior pro. There's others out the door before McTominay keep him in the squad but we need much better than him if we're going to get anywhere. Most teams in the top half of the prem have a centre mid who's better than McTominay.
 

Macariman

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If it was still his first 12-18 months in change I'd say still half full but it's now 2 1/2 seasons in we really should be seeing something better than this in terms of structure within the team. It feels to me a bit like Van Gaal's last 6 months at this point we all know it's over there will be a few buzzes along the way but it just feels like we're dragging out the inevitable. Unlike Mourinho Ole isn't going to force the issue by just burning the whole place to the ground in public to force the club into sacking him. With me I'd say it started half empty with Ole I never really saw it with him but now it's empty which is sad because he's such a great bloke and I do think he's done a lot of good work rebuilding the club.

Last night Ole even said before the game it was 4-2-4 and it really was the team was so stretched the forward were basically a straight line of 4 with the full backs weren't quite as attacking but the gap between the defence and attack was huge the midfield stood no chance. You can't be giving teams at this level that much space even a half decent prem side will exploit this it's why that formation isn't used anymore by anyone. Second half it seemed to work better Bruno dropped off that forward line and created that link that was missing and we absolutely pulled them to pieces and there was a noticeable rise in effort possibly because for the first time the boo's were out at half time.

The only thing I'd say on Scholes is I think he gives Pogba to much credit I understand 100% what he says about him needing a player next to him in his hear keeping him on a leash but he's 28 now if he hasn't learned yet he never will and Scholes pretty much hinted the same. It's why you just can't trust him in there. At the top level should you really need to have someone talking their team mate through the game? Especially a guy who is apparently being offered £400k a week to stay?

Scholes did say he's a McTominay fan he seems to really like him but I don't really see it got a good engine on him but looks lost a lot of the time he didn't really come through as a centre mid he was an attacking player and I don't think he's fully mastered the roll yet and he's now into his 4th season as a senior pro. There's others out the door before McTominay keep him in the squad but we need much better than him if we're going to get anywhere. Most teams in the top half of the prem have a centre mid who's better than McTominay.
Yeah, keep him in the squad, much like Mata, Telles and DvdB(who has shown his class but unfortunately not allowed to do so at OT)
 

jsp

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Yeah, keep him in the squad, much like Mata, Telles and DvdB(who has shown his class but unfortunately not allowed to do so at OT)

I'm not having Mata he should have been moved on 2 years ago as nice a guy as he is and maybe he's even a top pro but I just can't see why he's still around. Last season he made 18 senior appearences this season he's made 1 and it's hard to imagine where he gets another one from at this point.

VDB well his only hope is if the manager changes Ole clearly isn't having him and I'd be amazed if he's still around after the next window if Ole's still at the club.

Think he need to try and shift 2 or 3 of the attacking players out in January to be honest got way to many options and I imagine the money men are looking at that wage bill thinking this needs reigning in a bit.
 

Justin Cider

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No, what I'm saying is this guy's ability is minimal. If u want to see players of mediocre talent playing for Utd, then so be it

It's not about what I want is it?

At the moment McTom and Fred is our best current pairing if we continue to play with a two. You'd probably agree.

And going forward they will both be more than useful squad players in part due to their versatility.

And your character assassination post was about Scot's performance for Scotland and it's not as though they had been pulling up trees on the International stage for a wee while now, nor are they overendowed with talented players so you should be glad he out of the goodness of his heart has agreed to help you out in these difficult times, and it may only be coincidence but Scotland's results have improved quite dramatically since he's first joined the squad.
 

Macariman

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I'm not having Mata he should have been moved on 2 years ago as nice a guy as he is and maybe he's even a top pro but I just can't see why he's still around. Last season he made 18 senior appearences this season he's made 1 and it's hard to imagine where he gets another one from at this point.

VDB well his only hope is if the manager changes Ole clearly isn't having him and I'd be amazed if he's still around after the next window if Ole's still at the club.

Think he need to try and shift 2 or 3 of the attacking players out in January to be honest got way to many options and I imagine the money men are looking at that wage bill thinking this needs reigning in a bit.
Interesting what u say about forwards. I think sometimes having too much of a good thing can work against u. Ole has been blessed/cursed with an overabundance in this dept.
Can he keep them all happy? Selling a couple should be the go
Personally I still haven't seen a full 90 mins from Sancho, but really am looking forward to it
 

Macariman

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It's not about what I want is it?

At the moment McTom and Fred is our best current pairing if we continue to play with a two. You'd probably agree.

And going forward they will both be more than useful squad players in part due to their versatility.

And your character assassination post was about Scot's performance for Scotland and it's not as though they had been pulling up trees on the International stage for a wee while now, nor are they overendowed with talented players so you should be glad he out of the goodness of his heart has agreed to help you out in these difficult times, and it may only be coincidence but Scotland's results have improved quite dramatically since he's first joined the squad.
I may be Scottish but can't say I'm a fervent fan.
Having watched their last 2 games, it was McT I particularly kept my eye on
As I said, I wish Southgate chose him 1st.
 

jsp

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Interesting what u say about forwards. I think sometimes having too much of a good thing can work against u. Ole has been blessed/cursed with an overabundance in this dept.
Can he keep them all happy? Selling a couple should be the go
Personally I still haven't seen a full 90 mins from Sancho, but really am looking forward to it

Yep forward players tend to be needy they like to be the hero that gets the glory so having lots of them is great but that's a lot of people who might not be happy and if they're not happy when they come in they don't always look sharp. Lingard to his credit I think always looks sharp when he comes off the bench the rest don't really seem to enjoy that role they struggle to get going.

Ole seems to want to play 4 attacking players in his line up we know 2 are pretty much nailed on starters Bruno/Ronaldo but he's got 8 or 9 others competing for 2 spots it's to much. He needs to let a few go either out on loan or sell them if we can in January and just focus on the ones he wants to work with.

Sancho has been a slow burner but I think it's coming little by little the performances are getting better without really being fantastic I think a few more weeks and he could be key. Bet he'd love to bang the winner in vs City
 

Justin Cider

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I may be Scottish but can't say I'm a fervent fan.
Having watched their last 2 games, it was McT I particularly kept my eye on
As I said, I wish Southgate chose him 1st.

Watched most of the Israel game and though he didn't pull up any trees thought he had a good solid game and was chuffed for him when he scored the winner, didn't watch much of the Faroe Island match as they are a team of spoilers who take you down to their level if you don't get an early goal or two. Not many impress against them.
 

RVN

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To think Jude Bellingham chose Dortmund because we could not guarantee him enough games. He should have been told if you prove yourself you are in the team. He would have played every game.
 

SuperRash

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What we wouldn’t do for a Bellingham right now!

On another note, if Mejbri was at Dortmund I think he would already be playing in and around the first team.
 

Justin Cider

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To think Jude Bellingham chose Dortmund because we could not guarantee him enough games. He should have been told if you prove yourself you are in the team. He would have played every game.

Highly unlikely, you'd struggle to name half a dozen 17/18 year olds that were first team regulars in the top flight in England for the last 50 years, whereas on the Continent it's the norm.
 

Justin Cider

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What we wouldn’t do for a Bellingham right now!

On another note, if Mejbri was at Dortmund I think he would already be playing in and around the first team.

Not unless he sorted his temperament out he wouldn't, he still far too easy to get at it.
 

RVN

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Highly unlikely, you'd struggle to name half a dozen 17/18 year olds that were first team regulars in the top flight in England for the last 50 years, whereas on the Continent it's the norm.
So you're saying the coaches would be unable to see that he would be better than our current midfield pairings.
 

Macariman

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To think Jude Bellingham chose Dortmund because we could not guarantee him enough games. He should have been told if you prove yourself you are in the team. He would have played every game.
Do u think Ole would have given him the minutes? I'm thinking DvdB and Sancho here?
 

Justin Cider

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So you're saying the coaches would be unable to see that he would be better than our current midfield pairings.

Nope, but for some reason that's how you've chosen to interpret my post.

Even if the lad had come through the system at United he wouldn't be a starter at United, not yet anyway, and that would have been the same if he had been around when SAF, David Moyes, LvG or that Portuguese chap were Manager.

Apart from Nutty Norman I can't think of anybody else that was a regular in midfield for United at a similar age, and there's obviously a reason why it doesn't happen more often when you think of some of the Academy Grads that have gone on to become regulars.

You could probably protect him in a three in midfield, but would you make that change as a Manager for a player that may not be able to hack being a Manchester United player, or you could only use in a three.
 

jsp

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The class of 92 lads came into a side that had just done the double it was a seriously good team full of quality players in their prime. You can’t chuck kids into this mess they’d be eaten alive especially in midfield where you are essentially being asked to do an impossible job with these tactics.

This season the problem has become much bigger than a midfield problem the whole team is a mess right now.
 

Macariman

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The class of 92 lads came into a side that had just done the double it was a seriously good team full of quality players in their prime. You can’t chuck kids into this mess they’d be eaten alive especially in midfield where you are essentially being asked to do an impossible job with these tactics.

This season the problem has become much bigger than a midfield problem the whole team is a mess right now.
Try not to get too concerned comrade, Ole's still at the wheel
 

Justin Cider

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Norman was playing up front at that age. Nicky butt and Paul scholes were around 19 I think.

He played both, and you're more likely to get a start up front at that age anyway, Fowler and Owen to of the best examples(boo, hiss)

Nicky Butt made his debut at 17 but was well into his 20's before he was a regular, and Scholes didn't even make his debut till he was nearly 20, mind you a double cheek fracture and his asthma did hold him back.

And of that group only Nev was a regular starter and he was 19
 

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