Fred-McTominay

Mr C

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I think his role would be the same, protect the defence, win the ball and pass it to Pogba/other cm. Not sure it comes down to formation, it's more role.

I only watch match of the day, but Norgaard looks exactly the player we need. And one we could get probably quite cheaply. Although he has just signed a new deal. Probably because they thought he'd be in the shop window.

PS, I don't think uniteds squad depth was that good, LB, RB, CD, CM, RW. Still not exactly full of depth now.
 

jsp

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It's a style issue though. Brentford from what I've seen press relentlessly and they play quite direct to Toney it's a real high energy style of football designed to not let the opponent rest and force mistakes which they then try to punish. Utd just don't do that we have absolutely no press as a team we lose the ball and we drop off my worry with signing a player from them would be how would he be able to adapt his game to play the way we play.

I'd probably put it down to this who is the better coach Rodgers or Ole? I'd probably go with Rodgers but who's the better guy to be the Man Utd manager? It's Ole for now but I'm not sure how much longer. He needs to start showing some sort of imprint on the pitch that is going to deliver consistent performances and results he's now got to many big players to be allowed to fail.
 

Mr C

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Ole definitely needs to up his game, and get us playing and dominating. It should be surprise to lose/draw to Villa/Everton. But I just expect it.
 

Macariman

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Did I even mention his success in Scotland? I left that out for a reason mainly because at the time he was bossing it up their his only credible opponent was in a mess after relegation. It's why I don't really care what Ole won in Norway.

Forgot to mention he got Swansea promoted which is really where he made his name before getting a shot at Liverpool who weren't exactly flying when he took over. That Liverpool side really came out of nowhere to finish second that season but it fizzled out when Suarez was sold and Sturridge got injured.

As I said he's won the FA Cup and when he took over Leicester they had fallen a fair way from the league winners of 2016 they finished 11th and 9th the two seasons before he arrived. Since then they've finished 5th twice and they're dissapointed with that having been in the top 4 for most of that season.

Also, as I said in my original post I wouldn't have him at Utd but you can't knock his record as a manager. When he's had the favourite he won everything he could possibly win when he's had the underdog he's finished above expectations.
Once again jsp, I doff my cap!
 

IDFD

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Did I even mention his success in Scotland? I left that out for a reason mainly because at the time he was bossing it up their his only credible opponent was in a mess after relegation. It's why I don't really care what Ole won in Norway.

Forgot to mention he got Swansea promoted which is really where he made his name before getting a shot at Liverpool who weren't exactly flying when he took over. That Liverpool side really came out of nowhere to finish second that season but it fizzled out when Suarez was sold and Sturridge got injured.

As I said he's won the FA Cup and when he took over Leicester they had fallen a fair way from the league winners of 2016 they finished 11th and 9th the two seasons before he arrived. Since then they've finished 5th twice and they're dissapointed with that having been in the top 4 for most of that season.

Also, as I said in my original post I wouldn't have him at Utd but you can't knock his record as a manager. When he's had the favourite he won everything he could possibly win when he's had the underdog he's finished above expectations.

I mean it's a very kind assessment of his time at Liverpool. Whilst there he had 3 complete seasons where he finished 7th 2nd 6th. Didn't win anything and never even made a final. But they were also favourites in the run in for that title and bottled it. 3-0 up vs Crystal Palace and after finishing 2nd he then took them to 6th. The following season he was then sacked because he managed 1 win in 10 games. Klopp came in and took them to the Europa league final the same season and has never finished out of the top 4 with a full season. That is damning on Rodgers ability during his time at Liverpool. There was a reason he had to head to Scotland to rebuild his career and it's not because he exceeded expectations.

Since returning to the premier league he's shown the same end of season form he's shown at Liverpool. His teams either don't last the distance or they bottle it during the run in. 3 times in a row in this league when he's been in a position to exceed expectations he's fallen short come the last 10 games. At this point it becomes a trait of his sides.

Though I wouldn't be completely against taking a risk on him. If it stopped us going for the likes of Conte. Maybe he could make the step up. I'd certainly prefer to have a look at Potter though.
 

jsp

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I mean it's a very kind assessment of his time at Liverpool. Whilst there he had 3 complete seasons where he finished 7th 2nd 6th. Didn't win anything and never even made a final. But they were also favourites in the run in for that title and bottled it. 3-0 up vs Crystal Palace and after finishing 2nd he then took them to 6th. The following season he was then sacked because he managed 1 win in 10 games. Klopp came in and took them to the Europa league final the same season and has never finished out of the top 4 with a full season. That is damning on Rodgers ability during his time at Liverpool. There was a reason he had to head to Scotland to rebuild his career and it's not because he exceeded expectations.

Since returning to the premier league he's shown the same end of season form he's shown at Liverpool. His teams either don't last the distance or they bottle it during the run in. 3 times in a row in this league when he's been in a position to exceed expectations he's fallen short come the last 10 games. At this point it becomes a trait of his sides.

Though I wouldn't be completely against taking a risk on him. If it stopped us going for the likes of Conte. Maybe he could make the step up. I'd certainly prefer to have a look at Potter though.

At Liverpool he shot them from 7th to 2nd and you are right to say they did blow it right at the end of that season much like that season Leicester won it they got on a roll but just came up short against a relentless City side that punished every little slip! That summer they lost Suarez and Sturridge got injured so it was left to Sterling and a gamble on Balotelli to try and fire them to a title that didn't happen and they fell off massively, he also had to deal with the issue of the ageing legend in Gerrard which was a problem for him. He was rightly sacked the following season and he can have no complaints but I do think he left enough behind for Klopp to start building with. Liverpool were in a mess when he took over it was still early days with FSG but I think he did some good work and if you asked Klopp I'm sure he'd give him some credit for the work he did that allowed him to build on.

Think he made a clever move going up to Scotland having left Liverpool he wasn't going to get a top job in England so he went north and built some fantastic Celtic sides that absolutely dominated the league playing some great football. Developed some good talent as well who've got on to have good career away from Celtic. Took them into the group stages in the CL for the first time in 3 seasons that's a big achievement in Scotland where the budgets are a lot smaller.

I'd argue finishing 5th with Leicester is exceeding expectations given they aren't recognised as a big 6 club the fact that in two seasons he's finished above two of the big 6 is surely exceeding expectations?

For me Utd have to aim higher than Rodgers but if we're looking domestically he's the obvious appointment for any big club looking for a new manager but like any manager he's a risk.
 

IDFD

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Sky may not recognize them as a big six club but at the start of the season if you were betting on them or Arsenal to win the league you would have got a shorter odds on Leicester.

Let's not pretend they haven't got a side fully capable of finishing in that top 6 and he's working magic with them. Last season when we were discussing it the combined starting 11 from United/Leicester had many Leicester players in it and many would have said their starting 11 pips ours.

This season we've made a few additions but finishing 5th with that Leicester side isn't some magicians trick. They've got a very good team.

It's also going unnoted how poor a start to this season they're having.
 

jsp

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Were they considered a top 6 contender before he took over though? I agree now you expect them to finish in the top 5 but when he took over I don't think anyone would have seriously backed them to finish 5th they were a decent mid table side.

I don't know how much control he has over the signings but they've signed a lot of good players on his watch and he's developed some good younger players as well into what we both agree is a pretty good team where expectations should be high at the start of the season.
 

IDFD

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Well they won the league just three seasons before he took over.

I'd also suggest they have one of the best recruitment teams in the country. It's the club people look at as the well run club in the league right through from the owners, recruitment team, youth team and manager they work well together. But the team in place have a strong history of getting signings right at the moment. Going back to Mahrez and Kante.

With Tielemans and Ndidi coming from the same league as Kante and Mahrez I'd say you'd have to put that with the recruitment team.

With Madison everyone knew about him but no one else took could risk to take the punt. Much like Toney at Brentford is they hadn't come up it would have been a team like West Ham that took the punt on him again being able to make the step up.

And their youth system appears spot on in providing players that are ready at the moment. Thomas, Justin, Barnes plus others that have come through and been sold.

I wouldn't say he's exceeded expectations in the league. But he's got them a cup.

Though to me the big thing is they've got the best owners in the league and the club is very well run.
 

jsp

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He's only signed 6 players for a transfer fee according to the list I just found. Tielemens, Fofana, Preat, Castangna, Perez, Justin

James Justin was signed from Luton so isn't a youth product.

Can't deny it's a well run club and he's delivered two very good league finishes in his two full seasons in charge by their standards and won a domestic cup.
 

IDFD

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I suppose it's just perception. Perhaps I'd have been more impressed if they'd hoverred around 5th all season. For me it's the fact in both seasons they've had a 10+ point gap over 5th with 10 games to go.

In 2019/20 through 28 games they averaged 1.78 points per game. Through the last 10 games they averaged 1.2 PPG
In 2020/21 through 28 games they averaged 1.89 PPG. Through the last 10 games they averaged 1.3 PPG.

Maybe if they'd just gone 1.5 points per game throughout i'd look at it differently but for me that comes up as falling short when it matters.

I didn't realise they'd signed Justin. See this is where our recruitment team really let us down. Who was the last guy we signed for pennies that has made an impact on our squad. There are gems out there to be had and considering the money we've got shouldn't we have a recruitment team that is scouring the country up and down to find them?
 

IDFD

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Just looking you'd have to say Smalling and Hernandez were the last two signings of the ilk we made who really had an effect.

Hopefully Pelestri gets added to the list one day.
 

jsp

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Didn't the suffer quite badly from injury and suspension at the end of his first season got a feeling they lost most of the defence towards the end of the season and they eventually collapsed. Think if you're being fair you judge it over the season not try and break it up into chunks but it's the age old thing of scoring a last minute equaliser leaves you a lot happier than letting one even though both result in a point.

Utd definitely haven't been able to sniff out the bargains for a long time think you could make a case for Daley Blind being a pretty solid player for us during his time he cost around £15m from memory when we signed him. Hard to really tell if we've even been looking for them to be honest we signed Dan James which never really worked out even if he was sold on for profit and had some bright moments we don't seem to be looking down the league for solutions to our problems.

Given how much of an overhaul our midfield needs they could certainly do with finding a hidden gem given where the prices are now.
 

Justin Cider

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Loving the recent comments/debate guys, honest, but i'm still undecided, maybe a Moderator could add a poll so we can vote on whether Brendon Rodgers is a better midfielder than Fred or McTominay.
 

boothstownred

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Given the he was a defender and didn't make it through the trialist stage at United I would have to say on a level with MCT and slightly better then Fred.
 

Macariman

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1st of all congratulations to CR. Extending his WR for international goals, 10th hat-trick for his country, the guy's a freak of nature.

Don't suppose many of u had to endure watching Scotland's WC quals, lucky u.
We speak of Utd's lack of quality in DM and deservedly so.
McFred r certainly nowhere near good enough. Invariably Fred takes most of the lambasting and disparaging but if u consider McT's international performances, I'd say embarrassing is an understatement.
Playing against the mighty powerhouses in world football that Israel and Faroe Islands r, he should be hanging his head in shame.
1st game playing on the RH side of a back 3, I don't know how many times he was caught in possession, out of position and most of his attempted passes went straight to an Israeli or straight out of play? The amount of needless free-kicks he gave away around the 18 yard box, I lost count of. How can a guy 6ft 4 be beaten in the air by a striker a good 6 inches smaller, on just about every occasion? again, far outwith my comprehension. Scored the winning goal yes but from a distance of a yard or so from the line, even impossible for him to miss, well maybe?
The 2nd game playing in the position he does for Utd, he put in an abysmal performance, as did all his fellow compatriots, no let me take that back. He is English, if only Southgate had selected him before we did!
Every time he had the ball at his feet, I was very concerned. On 1 occasion, from a free-kick about 30 yards out he somehow he was.somehow.allowed to take it. How the f#$! the capt Robertson could allow this with McGinn on the pitch, I'll never know? Anyway the bold Scott unleashed an astonishing attempt that no, didn't hit row Z but I'm sure had the folk sitting in rows S, T and U ducking for cover.
Twice thru on goal, made the most pitiful efforts. 1 straight at the keeper, who could have quite easily have tied his bootlaces before picking the ball up. The 2nd defied belief. Around 12 yards out he somehow managed to put it just wide of the 6 yard box.
By far the worst man on the pitch.
When thinking that he's a constant starter for MUFC, leaves me baffled and furious.
The guy is not only a shocking football player but an embarrassment to the famous Red jersey.
Yes, DM is certainly a major problem for Utd but if Ole continues with this pairing then I can see absolutely nothing coming our way in the near future!
 

Mr C

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He's been really poor for united too.

I really worry about this position at the club, I think it will be the death of Ole's tenure.

Really, it's about two windows just to fix that one position, they definitely need to do something in Jan.
 

IDFD

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I was reading the McTominay match thread from last season it's basically a constant stream of 'Not good enough' 'He was poor again today' 'Fred will take the brunt of it but he was poor today' with the exception of the Leeds game.

Both of them have been out of form for a long time.
 

jsp

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McTominay was probably our best player in the Europa League final to be fair.

But yeah basically Fred-McTominay are both players you'd have no really problem with being your backups but neither are good enough to start for Utd and McTominay is being given a lot more time because he's an academy graduate rather than a big money signing.

I think quite a lot of players have had poor starts to the season in terms of their own form don't think any of the back have 4 looked at their best either.
 

Cosmic Slop

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Interesting stat, McTominay has made 95 appearances for United and scored 10 goals.
Fred has made 82 appearances and scored 2.
John O'Shea made 256 appearances and scored 10.
Darren Fletcher made appearances 223 and scored 18.
Ji-Sung Park made appearances 134 and scored 19.
Nani made 147 appearances and scored 25.

Make of that what you will. I was surprised it had already been 95 games for McT and that he had scored 10.
 

Cosmic Slop

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Park was 7+ out of 10 every game.
Honestly, wasn't a big fan of his playing style. As a player, lovely guy. Talent-wise, in that midfield he was often the least capable player. Park ran like he had two lungs and gave 100% every time he played, but I was actually annoyed when Giggs was benched in favor of him. That he's better than both McT and Fred says a lot about our current state of affairs.
 

Mr C

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Maybe two lungs each side o_O

I think you've done park a disservice there, he always turned up in the big games.
Granted if he was picked we wouldn't be so attacking. But he was a great player for us.
 

jsp

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Park was excellant when given a very specific role to play in the team normally in big games but against the middle and weaker opponents who would sit off us he struggled as he wasn't great one vs one. However, when it came to putting the opponent under pressure or attacking spaces left for counter attacks he was a very good player.

The lad turned up in big games and that was a hell of a quality to have in a player but he had limitations which meant you didn't want him starting every single week. Which is how I feel about all those players in that list above all fantastic squad players at Utd but you wouldn't want to be relying on them for 50 games a season.
 

Macariman

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McTominay was probably our best player in the Europa League final to be fair.

But yeah basically Fred-McTominay are both players you'd have no really problem with being your backups but neither are good enough to start for Utd and McTominay is being given a lot more time because he's an academy graduate rather than a big money signing.

I think quite a lot of players have had poor starts to the season in terms of their own form don't think any of the back have 4 looked at their best either.
If u r prepared to settle for McT in midfield ...... ?
 

jsp

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If u r prepared to settle for McT in midfield ...... ?

I'm not I'm happy for him to be in the squad playing 20-25 games a season maybe but he shouldn't be a 50 games a season starter. That's what Fletcher was playing through his career and he was a much better player than McTominay.

Think I've said on either this thread or others but Utd need to a full midfield overhaul over the next few windows all the current crop probably need to be upgraded.

Utd I think need 5 new centre mids we hope one or two might come from the academy but this lot just aren't up to the standard.

Lets be honest if Fred/McTominay left they would be struggling to get in most of the top half teams every week that's a sad reality of where things are for us. Even considering that they are still the best we can do as a pairing in midfield as the other combo's are worse.
 

Macariman

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I'm not I'm happy for him to be in the squad playing 20-25 games a season maybe but he shouldn't be a 50 games a season starter. That's what Fletcher was playing through his career and he was a much better player than McTominay.

Think I've said on either this thread or others but Utd need to a full midfield overhaul over the next few windows all the current crop probably need to be upgraded.

Utd I think need 5 new centre mids we hope one or two might come from the academy but this lot just aren't up to the standard.

Lets be honest if Fred/McTominay left they would be struggling to get in most of the top half teams every week that's a sad reality of where things are for us. Even considering that they are still the best we can do as a pairing in midfield as the other combo's are worse.
 

Cosmic Slop

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I'm not I'm happy for him to be in the squad playing 20-25 games a season maybe but he shouldn't be a 50 games a season starter. That's what Fletcher was playing through his career and he was a much better player than McTominay.

Think I've said on either this thread or others but Utd need to a full midfield overhaul over the next few windows all the current crop probably need to be upgraded.

Utd I think need 5 new centre mids we hope one or two might come from the academy but this lot just aren't up to the standard.

Lets be honest if Fred/McTominay left they would be struggling to get in most of the top half teams every week that's a sad reality of where things are for us. Even considering that they are still the best we can do as a pairing in midfield as the other combo's are worse.
I think both Fred and McT are being deployed in a way that highlights their weaknesses. If a manager were able to use them to complete a midfield puzzle, they both might seem better. I don't know what team Fred would need to be in, maybe it's the Brazil national side, but McTominay I think could be a box to box player if he had the right team around him.
 

IDFD

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McTominays passing like Fred's is to sloppy to be a top midfielder regardless of how he's deployed.
 

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