maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
The ideas i'm throwing out there are things that can or could actually change now. While I agree rebuilding Wembley was more of a waste of money then upgrading your ticket on the titanic, it's done now. It is a 750 million quid accessory we didn't need but it's there. I take your point about the attendance the other night but there was no atmosphere. I could hear the bloke in row 'F' talking it was that quite.

All of the foreign coaches, players and playing styles in this country now again aren't going anyway. I agree it's killed any playing style or anything we had before but it's also introduced us to other things which have improved our game. But overall it's about changing the things we can change.

But ultimately your right the fat cats at the top of the FA are killing the game. At all levels. The money entering the game isn't filtering down to grass roots at all. I'm a local youth football coach and I can't begin to tell you just how expensive it is to put a game on. A pitch alone is £60 a ref is £15. £75 quid a home match before a balls been kicked and it's the kids that pick up the bill. It's the state of the game at the minute. It's too expensive for parents with signing on fees that local FAs need or want rather. When you see these Billion pound deals go into the prem It's only making the people on top more weathly despite what the FA try and say.

But again what can we do? Maybe a better quality first team would inspire change throughout the system. But to do that I do believe things are going to have to radically change.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Atmosphere at England games is always weird as I said before we don't really have chants that everyone is comfortable singing. I'm not sure people want to be teaching their kids a song about German bombers and the IRA and our national anthem is hardly inspiring it's about making the queen proud and happy and I don't know last time she bothered turning up to a football match. There isn't really a chant that lifts the crowd. They're also some of the worst people for demanding to be entertained by the game and as a result they can quickly turn on the team. I mean people actually booing Rashford in the first half on Monday, what sort of person does that because he made a mistake and gave the ball away.

I think the FA itself has it's hands tied a bit with the money as it's local councils who charge the fees for the pitches and they're all skint due to budget cuts they also have to try and vet coaches to make sure it's safe for them to work with kids and all that. I doubt they see much of a kick back from the Premier League in terms of the revenue it's easy to forget all the money at the very top goes to them rather than the FA and it's only a guess but while the revenue of the PL has gone up my guess is the % that goes back to the FA has probably decreased.

I think the opposite if the first team was successful it would justify the way things are, if we want to see things change things probably need to get worse, but we failed to qualify in 2008 so they sacked the manager and appointed a very expensive foreign one who steered the ship back on track to get us to the world cup but it doesn't feel like anything really changed.

St George's Park might help things but we won't see the benefit of that for 10 years as it's a long term thing which has only been up and running for a few years. The big difference I think is in Germany when they had a bad tournament they came up with a plan and went to the clubs and said this is what we want you to do and all the clubs fell in line and did it, in England that just wouldn't happen as the clubs are only out for themselves. Now the difference in other sports like Rugby or Cricket is the national level is the pinnacle of the sport and all the clubs/counties fall in line with what the board says but in Football in England it just doesn't work that way.
 

SuperRash

Moderator
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
6,693
Age
34
We missed the 2008 Euros - It taught us nothing.

The spine of our side is terrible. The full backs aren't massively excellent. The goalkeeper is a mistake waiting to happen.

Surely we've got to be able to field a better midfield than Henderson and Dier.

Compare last nights 11 to the team that went to the 2006 world cup.

James

Neville Ferdinand Terry Cole

Beckham Gerrard Lampard Cole

Rooney Owen

The back up 11 would have a shot at beating last nights starting 11

Robinson

Jenas Carragher Campbell Bridge

Lennon Hargreaves Carrick Downing

Crouch Theo

Jenas has to play RB as we only took 7 defenders. Even with Jenas at RB that's probably still a better back 4 than we played last night. And the midfield is a lot better. From the current crop of players the only ones that really are of the quality required are Alli Rashford and Kane. The rest of them look miles off the pace. We've fallen short of our own poor standards. That's how much getting knocked out of a tournament in qualifying for it has taught us.
Geez I forgot how good our midfield options were back then. If we were going to do anything special in a major tournament then that was it. Our midfield options now are laughable compared to those you've mentioned above.
 

the nuts named eric

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
273
Midfield was chosen woefully though. Lampard and Gerrard were never made to play together both's best position was off a striker in reality. Should have played one of Hargreaves and Carrick with one of Lampard and Gerrard, England d would have fared far better. But that still lends me to think that So sorts have more say in the team than picking a team does.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Squad for the upcoming fixtures

Goalkeepers: Joe Hart (West Ham, on loan from Manchester City), Fraser Forster (Southampton), Jack Butland (Stoke) Jordan Pickford (Everton)
Defenders: Ryan Bertrand (Southampton), Aaron Cresswell (West Ham), Gary Cahill (Chelsea), Phil Jones (Manchester United), Harry Maguire (Leicester), John Stones (Manchester City), Michael Keane (Everton), Chris Smailling (Manchester United), Kyle Walker (Manchester City), Kieran Trippier (Tottenham)
Midfielders: Eric Dier (Tottenham), Fabian Delph (Manchester City), Jake Livermore (West Brom), Jordan Henderson (Liverpool), Raheem Sterling (Manchester City), Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain (Liverpool), Jesse Lingard (Manchester United), Dele Alli (Tottenham)
Forwards: Marcus Rashford (Manchester United), Harry Kane (Tottenham), Jermain Defoe (Bournemouth), Daniel Sturridge (Liverpool)

Welbeck, Chalobah & Heaton all drop out from previous squad due to injury.

My only thing with this is why are we picking 4 keepers in a squad when we know only 1 will play? What is the point in calling up Forster he's a decent keeper but realistically are we ever going to play him surely if someone needs to come in we will play Butland or Pickford. Personally I'd be putting 1 of them in from the start in both games given Hart's form for his club over the last year.

Midfield is still the issue here really no real creativity in the centre midfields, Sterling/Rashford are our only quality wide players and Alli struggles to replicate club form in and England shirt.
 

Red Warrior

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
2,903
Age
50
zzzzzzzzz England WC qualifiers! The current England team inspires me with no excitement whatsoever.
 

IDFD

Moderator
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
9,620
Age
35
I'm going to the game next Thursday. Practically giving the tickets away. £10 so figured I may as well.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
Haha 4 keepers great spot. Well done Southgate! Maybe we are trying Joe Hart in centre midfield now?
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
The sad thing is there's nothing even in the U21's in centre mid to even call up I know a few on here champion Ward-Prowse and maybe it is worth looking at him and I'm assuming Drinkwater is still injured & Barkley isn't fit either but neither of them are particularly exciting, Barkley can provide the odd moment of brilliance followed by weeks of frustration.

I think if Delph can get back to the sort of level he was playing at when he was at Villa he's probably a starter that's how low the bar has dropped.

In terms of starting midfield/attack this is about the best we can put out given the current options and it's not that impressive and it's short on goals but apart from Lallana who'd probably start over Sterling there isn't much missing.

Dier Henderson

Sterling Alli Rashford

Kane

The issue really is our players are probably suited to digging in and playing counter attack football but in every qualifier we're the team with the ball all the time facing that sort of opposition and we don't really have the players to ruthlessly pick that apart.

It feels like we'll just be stuck forever in a period of being good enough to get to tournaments but not good enough to win them.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
I'm one of those who proudly bangs the JWP drum and if he can't get into the England side now, with the little other options we have he might as well give up on his international career now. Such a shame because I think his a clever, creative player who has an excellent set piece delivery. And surely he's worth a chance now?

Obviously not. If we are going with anyone else which we must be for Delph to get a nod, why not ruben loftus-cheek? His been one of the only players that isn't awful at Palace.

Look at the under 21's squad that got released. So much pace and excitement. Would much rather watch them then the first team.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
They play different positions though Loftus-Cheek is more like Alli and he hasn't scored or assisted a goal this season whereas Delph has actually played ok.

Oxlade-Chamberlain hasn't played well for about 2 years but he still gets picked.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
The overall point is that this is probably the poorest England squad I've seen. 4 keepers has got to a real low point. I just don't understand why he doesn't call up some of the youngsters. JWP, ruben loftus-cheek, Tom Davies. They've all got to be worth a go over the same old same old rubbish we've called up.

You say Ruben loftus-cheek hasn't scored or assisted this season. He was fantastic against City last week, even with that score line. What's the Ox or Lingard done this year that warrants a call up?

At some point we as a country need to start pulling these youngsters through. This is the prime opportunity. It's got to be more beneficial calling up a tom Davies over a 4th keeper??
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Well Lingard I believe has scored a goal and created a few this season and to be fair been pretty impressive when he has played and he's only just broken in so it's a bit rash calling for him to be kicked out when he's actually played well for England and he's only 23/24, Ox for me has had more than enough chances like Walcott did and not really done enough he needs to sort out his club form before he gets picked.

A big problem is it's not the national teams job to pull these players through it's the clubs need to start giving them chances and Tom Davies is a great example he was very impressive last season I can't believe he isn't starting every week for Everton.

I mean if you want a bit of a left field should Scott Sinclair is doing very well in Scotland and must be full of confidence why isn't he getting a look in with England? I know it's only Scotland but he's playing Champions League football on a regular basis and scored in the week vs Anderlecht and England are very short of quality out wide. Why are we still picking Defoe? Abraham has scored 2 this season on loan at Swansea why not bring him along to go with the full squad as it's unlikely Defoe will play in either game and he shouldn't be going to the world cup.

Pretty sure one more win gets us qualified so hopefully next month when there are more internationals he might pick a few different names to see how they do and Loftus-Cheek if he can start putting some end product to these performances as a number 10 could force his way in Alli's form isn't great right now and Barkley is out until January so there's a gap in the squad for him if he plays well. Davies & Calvert-Lewin if they can play wel at Everton could get a chance.

As for Ward-Prowse the only thing I can think is that maybe off the ball he's not very good I don't watch enough of him to know if he's a bit of a defensive liability but there's obviously something England managers don't like and Southgate worked with him a lot in the U21's so you'd think he'd be happy to promote from that level.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
I only really know football post Euro 96 from an England point of view so it is probably as bad as I've ever known it we have 2 really good generations of players but it's been all down hill really since 2010 that one felt like the final nail in the coffin of the "golden generation" we then had 4 years of various guys hanging on while Rooney scored all the goals now we've finally cut all ties with them.

One thing it does make you accept though is they were a very talented generation I mean in the 90's strikers like Wright, Fowler, Collymore, Ferdinand, Cole all struggled to get in squads let alone start because we had Shearer & Sheringham, our options at CB & CM through the 00's were incredible now all we seem to be producing are decent full backs
 

IDFD

Moderator
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
9,620
Age
35
Yeah this team is poor compared to the sides I grew up with. Me and JSP are similarly aged and the 96 squad is the first side I really remember.

Ward-Prowse is definitely someone i'd have in the side but right now he can't force his way in to the Southampton line up and until he does that he wont get a call up. I really like the look of Davies. When you've look at our younger squads we have got some great talent coming through. Also Rashford Kane Alli Sterling are all still young that front 4 will terrorise people. But the centre mid is ridiculous bland.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Sterling is a strange player because his best football comes when he plays central I really don't think this kid is a winger which means he's competing with Alli for that central role behind Kane he kind of gets put out wide because old skool thinking is you put quick people on wings but he's got a bit of the Walcott about him in that I'm not sure he knows how to beat a full back one vs one as a winger. Would be good for England if him and Walker got an understanding going at club level.

The key player for England right now is Lallana he provides a lot of creativity in this side especially against the teams who dig in because he can play quick passes to open up gaps we really miss him when he's injured.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Alli banned for the first game

Maybe Sterling will get a chance to play more central?
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
England v Slovenia: Delph and Jones doubts for England

I guess the team will be

Hart

Walker Stones Cahill Bertrand

Henderson Dier

Oxlade-Chamberlain Sterling Rashford

Kane

No point risking Jones if he's injured and with Alli banned our options are a bit limited, assuming we get the win we need on Thursday you'd hope in the final game he'll give some of the backup players a start guys like Butland, Keane, Sturridge, Creswell etc.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
I guess the team will be

Hart

Walker Stones Cahill Bertrand

Henderson Dier

Oxlade-Chamberlain Sterling Rashford

Kane

No point risking Jones if he's injured and with Alli banned our options are a bit limited, assuming we get the win we need on Thursday you'd hope in the final game he'll give some of the backup players a start guys like Butland, Keane, Sturridge, Creswell etc.

I'd go with that side as well. But Rashord, Sterling and Kane must be looking at that midfield behind them and asking themselves what sort of service are they honestly going to provide? Henderson and Dier have got to be the most unproductive pairing since Jedward got together!
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
To be fair the obvious tactic to me in that side is just keep giving the ball to Rashford until we score as Ox gives you nothing down the right unless he has his one good game a season.

This team should be good enough to get the job done but it won't be pretty.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Jones & Delph withdraw from squad Harry Winks called up as a replacement.
 

SuperRash

Moderator
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
6,693
Age
34
Don't know much about Winks having not seen him really play for Spurs. However in my current FIFA team, he has absolutely killing it so he gets my vote. :cool:
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
He seems to get good reviews whenever he plays for Spurs but it shows the lack of depth in this position when you're having to pick a guy who's only just breaking into his club team.

It's the same with Lingard really he's barely kicked a ball this season for Utd but he's still good enough to make the squad because others like Redmond or Townsend who have been playing regularly haven't played well.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
Hopefully he gets some minutes against the mighty Lithuania on Sunday night!
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Yeah assuming the job gets done on Thursday, I think Southgate has a duty to rest the players who play at clubs playing in Europe who've already played a lot of minutes this season. If possible even release some of them from the squad so they don't have to travel to Lithuania. I mean there's no point in guys like Walker, Dier, Henderson, Rashford, Stones making that trip if they don't need to. If he does that then managers should be happier to work with him when it comes to releasing players for friendlies.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
That would be the fairest and correct thing to do absolutely. But this is Southgate we are talking about....

I'm just openly biased about the fact i think the guys a tool and a terrible manager. Think i need counseling to get over my Garethsouthgatephobia!
 

SuperRash

Moderator
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
6,693
Age
34
You're not the only one to share your Southgate feelings, Max.

Not gonna lie, not since Venables have I really liked an England manager!
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
Good to know i'm not alone!

When your biggest achievement of your life is being in a Pizza Hut advert for me your not England manager material.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
I don't mind Southgate he wasn't really the one who applied for the job he was given it because there were no other options and he had a reasonably good playing career. The fact he missed a penalty in a shootout shouldn't really be used against him. He symbolises a wider issue which is the lack of young English managers currently in the game but again that's not his fault, that's foreign ownership and the pursuit of Premier League TV money that drives that issue.

As for likeable England managers I liked Hoddle, Eriksson & even Capello. They all clearly had a plan and stuck to it.

In terms of working with club managers I think Southgate is smart enough to know not to take on the big clubs. He wants players who are committed who turn up for the squad consistently and part of that will be giving players rest when he can on the basis that the clubs do it when they can it's in the interest of both parties to keep everyone fit.

I mean we fell so far under Hodgson that just getting out the group at the world cup would be progress. In fact after last time having a chance of going through in the 3rd group game would be progress.
 

Sideshow Bob

Avatar & New Members Forum Mod
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
40,325
England: Hart, Walker, Henderson, Bertrand, Stones, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Cahill, Kane, Dier, Rashford, Sterling.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
21,814
Only seen about 10 minutes looks like the tactics are give it to Rashford and hope for the best?

How has Walker taken that free kick? Kane, Rashford & Dier are all great free kick takers and right footed.
 

Sideshow Bob

Avatar & New Members Forum Mod
Joined
May 8, 2011
Messages
40,325
I've only seen the last 15 minutes of the first half. It's been fairly poor, and that's being kind.
 

maxt7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
997
Age
32
Based on 47 mins of this game Sterling isn't cleaver enough to be a number 10. His decision making is poor. His started the season fantastically as a winger so we should play him as one. Beating people on the move is what he does best so just let him focus on doing that. Keep it simple
 

Login or Register

Forgot your password?
or Log in using
Don't have an account? Register now
Top