jsp

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I think in the case of Ward-Prowse & Chalobah they've been in a bit of limbo where because they're not playing regular first team football it becomes hard to move them up to the next level in the case of both of them it might be that they just needed a bit more time at that level to come through like Keane & Lingard, once they started playing regularly they were in pretty quickly. Not everyone is ready at 18 like Rashford/Alli/Stones etc some need a little more time.

Ward-Prowse probably suffers from a bit of the big club bias in that it's hard for him to stand out at Southampton but you'd hope that England have a scout at every premier league game whereas Lingard was in as soon as he scored a goal at Man Utd.

The team did get a bit of an overhaul after the world cup in 2014 and since Euro 2016 the likes of Rooney & Milner have also retired.

The manager shouldn't be the one in control anyway a manager isn't thinking long term his focus needs to be short term his goal is getting the best result at the next tournament if he fails to meet that goal he gets sacked but there needs to be better planning for future tournaments from the board and guys like Dan Ashworth who are supposed to be leading that. However, this proves tricky as clubs/players don't seem keen to go to U21 tournaments and one of the reasons is some of them are already first choice in the senior teams. I do think the gruelling premier league season with no winter breaks makes it hard to call up young players who could do with a rest in the summer between tournaments.

I think after every tournament you want to be look at 4/5 players moving up from U21 level to senior squad in order to change it up and those who didn't really perform get dropped not dropped forever but they have to fight their way back in.
 

the nuts named eric

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From my point of view you cannot rip it up, or even supplant the youthful core with more youth, as in the case of near all bar Ward-Prowse they aren't playing regularly. Even Holgate at Everton is only in as Coleman is banjaxed. If Coleman hadn't had his leg broke by that toll in a Wales shirt he wouldn't be getting enough minutes for you to even mention him.

Chalobah moved at Southgate request and is getting picked because of that. Ward-Prowse is more deserving of being picked in that instance, but that's not happening for whatever reason.

@jsp I think you'll find an article on F365 or possibly ESPN that backs up my sponsorship idea. Think it was a match against a CONCACAF team at Wembley it stemmed from, but cannot quite remember. Possibly before the World Cup tournament with T&T in the group stage.
 

maxt7

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And that's exactly what hasn't happened here. This squad only featured Chalobah and Pickford from the under 21's. That's not enough. Pickford got injured and we probably won't see Chalobah at all. So there's been no transition.

Hodgson didn't get us out of the World Cup group in 14 and stayed on to the Euros. So maybe we are abit more understanding then say the Brazilians. I think after big Sam left a lot of people were looking around like 'who are we gonna appoint?' And that's a problem. There isn't and wasn't a real stand out candidate. It's a tough to get someone in that wants the pressure of being England Manager. Very much like Mike Bassett. So we need to be a more attractive proposition. Get someone in a say look this is a long term project. It will attract a better standard of Manager. Being England Manager won't mean your sticking your head in a noose. The FA should relax and let someone rip the rule book up and do it another way.

If the England manger picked the side I posted earlier how many people would moan? I'd suggest the real football fans would look at that and be excited. They'd think hang on what are we building here? Get a bit of a buzz around the England side. I think the expectations and pressure on the players, the manager and the FA would lower. Meaning we might actually get players club form into the international set up.
 

maxt7

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From my point of view you cannot rip it up, or even supplant the youthful core with more youth, as in the case of near all bar Ward-Prowse they aren't playing regularly. Even Holgate at Everton is only in as Coleman is banjaxed. If Coleman hadn't had his leg broke by that toll in a Wales shirt he wouldn't be getting enough minutes for you to even mention him.


Again not ripping it up. Just replacing the players that aren't good enough and have failed at major tournaments with the youth that are winning things.

Every great young player broke into their club sides through someone getting injured and taking their opportunity. What's that kids name again...Rashford that's it. He did it. Same with Holgate. If you watch him play his such a talented player. His setting a high standard for Coleman to match when his back. Same as all the other young English players at Everton that are keeping bigger names out.
 

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There are many players in this English side that probably aren't good enough, but there are players coming into the squad that probably aren't good enough, the likes of Redmond comes to mind. To be honest if you look at the U21 side that lost to Germany at the Euro's - there is not many players in the line up that you would say wow what a talent. It's sad but indicative of the quality we have right now. I agree on Ward-Prowse, he is a decent player but nothing more. However he should get an opportunity I think. I really rate Gray and I like the look of Abraham and Holgate but other than that, it's meh.

Centre midfield is sadly where we are lacking any genuine quality. Henderson, Livermore and Dier are okay but nothing more. Sadly Wilshere's career is dying a death and there are no standouts anywhere in the league that are knocking on the door. Oxford could turn out to be a star but his position is still undecided. We are way behind other nations in most departments to be fair.

Further down the spectrum you have top talents like Sancho, Foden, Gomes and Brewster to name a few - but they need to be given the opportunities.
 

maxt7

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Your right what you say. But If the current standard is Livermore and Henderson then surely it's worth trying these youngsters out? We won't know if they are good or 'meh' but we all know 100% that Livermore and Henderson are definitely 'meh' so why roll the dice?

I don't mind Redmond. His exactly like 'Ronseal' he does exactly what it say on the tin, his nothing more nothing less then a winger. Unlike the Welbeck/Walcott/Ox thing some sort of inside forward/kinda winger/got pace so shove me on the wing thing. Don't get what they add to the table. Redmond will cross/run at people/or shoot. Simplicity at its highest.
 

jsp

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To be fair why doesn't Livermore get a proper chance he's had like 3 games?

Henderson has been about for a few years now but he's injury prone so hasn't had a prolonged run

Dier has come in over the last 18-24 months and done ok.

I'd love Chalobah to step up but I'm not sure he's much better than Drinkwater who is another who's probably earned a chance. However, I watched Watford vs Liverpool and was more impressed by Tom Cleverley don't rule him out 100% and if Ox plays regularly in midfield will he get a chance their with England.

I think when Lallana is fit a diamond could work with Dier at the base, Henderson/Lallana in the two then Alli at the tip with Rashford/Kane up top together. We don't have World Class wingers so why starting with them, let the full backs provide the width.
 

jsp

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@maxt7 i get your criticism of Walcott & Ox but in defence of Welbz he has a good international record and rarely lets us down.
 

maxt7

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Tom Davies looks twice the player of Livermore already.

Fair enough but Welbeck's overall finishing isn't great. And His also been on a long run of injuries in recent season. But out of the 3 his the better one by a mile so I'll withdraw his name.
 

SuperRash

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I'd love Chalobah to step up but I'm not sure he's much better than Drinkwater who is another who's probably earned a chance. However, I watched Watford vs Liverpool and was more impressed by Tom Cleverley don't rule him out 100% and if Ox plays regularly in midfield will he get a chance their with England
I think this paragraph really sums up what I was saying about our midfield options. The likes of Drinkwater and Cleverley are not good enough even though they are solid EPL players. However, they are a tier below our first choice options. I look at the options for Germany and France in these areas and look upon them with jealousy.

Anyway England losing 1-0 after some poor play from Rashford. Also poor goalkeeping by Hart in truth.
 

jsp

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I think this paragraph really sums up what I was saying about our midfield options. The likes of Drinkwater and Cleverley are not good enough even though they are solid EPL players. However, they are a tier below our first choice options. I look at the options for Germany and France in these areas and look upon them with jealousy.

Anyway England losing 1-0 after some poor play from Rashford. Also poor goalkeeping by Hart in truth.

Yeah it's real slim pickings in there compared to 10 years ago Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard, Hargreaves, Carrick, Barry, Parker. There were a lot of options back then but it's all gone now.

Really sloppy goal poor from Rashford but Walker needed to offer him a pass not just sprint off up the pitch (only caught replay from one angle), frustrating this is shoe on other foot I don't think England punish that mistake.

Few half chances to get back in the game but Slovakia seem happy to go toe to toe with us obviously realise there's nothing to fear against this England side.
 

jsp

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1-1 Dier sweeps in a low Rashford corner.

Not convinced Rashford planned that one but chalk him up with an assist.
 

SuperRash

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Yeah Rashford definitely didn't mean it but we'll take it.

Henderson has been diabolical, I can't remember many of his passes going to it's intended target.

No-one has played particularly well but least we have managed to scrape a goal. We need to come out with intent in the second half because this Slovakian side has another goal in it for sure.
 

jsp

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The right side is very weak going forward Walker and Ox are notoriously bad crossers of the ball.

Rashford & Alli look bright but haven't created any clear chances yet.
 

SuperRash

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Rashford comfortably the best player on the pitch
Without a doubt. Followed closely by Jones.

Was a solid victory in the end but some of the performances were awful, Henderson, Walker, Kane to name a couple. Overall an uninspiring evening but only two points away from the finals so all good in the end.
 

jsp

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Without a doubt. Followed closely by Jones.

Was a solid victory in the end but some of the performances were awful, Henderson, Walker, Kane to name a couple. Overall an uninspiring evening but only two points away from the finals so all good in the end.

Is it though? Maybe the thing this country and our fans need is to fail to get to a tournament actually accept we aren't very good, based on last night if we get to the world cup we're struggling to get out of a group as anyone that has a go at us will probably beat us. These easy qualifying groups we keep getting are massively papering over the cracks of where we are right now if this lot even make it out of the group in Russia it should be considered a success, what is laughable is that we probably get seeded as a pot 1 team when they make the draw.

A fairly average Slovakia side have come to Wembley and rattled us created a couple of good chances and they'll probably be a bit dissapointed themselves that they didn't take something away as England were basically restricted to long shots just luckily one of them from Rashford was good enough to beat the keeper.

I hear Rashford was getting boo's from some fans in the first half I mean these people can just do one he's a kid that made a mistake and he sorted it out by setting up a goal and then scoring the winner plus being by far our most dangerous player with the ball all night.
 

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We missed the 2008 Euros - It taught us nothing.

The spine of our side is terrible. The full backs aren't massively excellent. The goalkeeper is a mistake waiting to happen.

Surely we've got to be able to field a better midfield than Henderson and Dier.

Compare last nights 11 to the team that went to the 2006 world cup.

James

Neville Ferdinand Terry Cole

Beckham Gerrard Lampard Cole

Rooney Owen

The back up 11 would have a shot at beating last nights starting 11

Robinson

Jenas Carragher Campbell Bridge

Lennon Hargreaves Carrick Downing

Crouch Theo

Jenas has to play RB as we only took 7 defenders. Even with Jenas at RB that's probably still a better back 4 than we played last night. And the midfield is a lot better. From the current crop of players the only ones that really are of the quality required are Alli Rashford and Kane. The rest of them look miles off the pace. We've fallen short of our own poor standards. That's how much getting knocked out of a tournament in qualifying for it has taught us.
 

jsp

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The only positive thing from the Hodgson era is the man was so good at lowering expectations that the press and general media finally accepted we weren't going to win these tounaments when we went into them.

I think it's a failure of our academy system we just aren't bringing through top quality players anymore go back to 2006 and we had plenty of very good players I don't care what anyone says that first choice XI plus some of the backup were very talented and should've done more internationally but we never had a manager who played his best team rather than his best XI.

There is talent that has come through but so many are blighted by injury problems the most obvious one being Wilshere but also guys like Jones, Welbeck, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Henderson all pick up a lot of niggling injuries.

I think it's easy to forget at our best in 2006 we were a top 10 team arguably top 5 at our very best and even now at a bit of a low point we're still top 20 out of something like 200 nations.

Until we can get the clubs to buy into the idea of supplying the national team with top quality English talent through their academy structure it'll never change and the clubs just aren't going to do that and since they've got all the money we're basically screwed.
 

maxt7

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Its just where England are at the minute. Coming from behind and beating Slovakia at home and scoring 3 late goals against Malta is a triumph. Watched the game on ITV last night and listen to Hoddle saying how well we've done to come back and Southgate would be delighted at how we 'grew into' the game. Had to click the information button to check we weren't playing Brazil. Honestly Everything we do feels like we are papering over the cracks.

England needs to be run like a club team. Promote from within and move on the players that aren't good enough for them anymore. Stop being over loyal. Seriously when was the last time Joe Hart kept a clean sheet? Or what's Dier's passing accuracy last night? So poor. But we get the win and everyone moves on thinking there's no problems here. Not seen anything from Southgate to suggest his gone to be the one that breaks this 51 year wait.
 

maxt7

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Haha I actually forgot about that. In fairness he did as much in the game as me.
 

maxt7

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A lot of the successful under 20's been called up to the under 21's tonight. Good to see. Need to push our under 21's on to the first team now.
 

jsp

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I think Hart is on thin ice but Southgate doesn't want to make a big deal of it if Butland/Pickford play well at club level they have to be given games in friendlies to try and take the spot from Hart.

Hart isn't playing well but he isn't making howlers that would force him to be dropped as number 1.
 

Red Warrior

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I've been watching England since I was little, the first wold cup I can remember is Spain 82. Every World Cup and Euro since then the huge flag of St. George comes out and gets draped out the bedroom window (much to the disgust of the Mrs.) and the excitement levels go through the roof.

Over the last few years I have lost interest in the qualifiying games, I never used to miss one on tv. I'm tired of seeing us labour to a 1-0 win (or worse) to semi-pro footballers.

Now the excitement has gone from even the tournements. Iceland put paid to that. The idea of seeing us embarrassed again after 3 group games, or scraping though somehow to be be made bigger idiots at the first knock out stage has taken it's toll on me. England at the minute has no 'star' players that I want to watch, if anything it's full of players I don't want to watch, not even worthy of the shirt. Oxlade Chamberlain, Dier, Cahill (can't even understand how he still plays for Chelsea), Henderson, Hart, Lallana, Stones, Sterling, Welbeck and the list goes on.

This bunch might win every qualifying game (just) against very, very mediocre opponents but when they come up against the big boys it's only going to end one way. If we couldn't do it with the 'golden generation' as IDFD said what chance have we now. It's a shame really as the whole nation is behind them every time but every tournament that goes by the hope that maybe, just maybe we can do it this time has gone. Long gone. We have no spine, no leaders, no stand out players. The mediocre teams of the world no longer fear us as Slovakia showed by coming at us (apparently, I didn't watch it).

Its a very sad state of affairs for the national team!

However, it's very exciting times for United so all is not lost! :)
 

the nuts named eric

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I just want to say that as a neutral England have no divine right to be challenging for a trophy, even if they did win one 51 years ago, Uruguay don't expect to win every world cup they enter just because they won two back in the 30's.

England are no longer good enough, hell there's talk that 66 was a fluke owing to home advantage and some suspect refereeing. But it is what it is, be proud of your team if that's what you want, don't be proud if they are players you don't feel you can get behind. But expecting stellar performances just because there's a trophy there from two generations ago, that's foolish.
 

jsp

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The most frustrating thing I find about the England team and sadly some of the people who follow it is we don't have any songs that celebrate winning the world cup in 66 or any other success we instead sing about the world wars, german bombers and the IRA. It makes supporting England feel quite awkward at times.

You spot on though @the nuts named eric everything before and after 66 suggests that it was a fluke result a one off like Greece in 2004, since 66 we've had 2 semi finals in major tournaments so that shows where we are at our best we're a semi final team and at our worst we're a group stage team.

Given what we did in the 70's & 80's the fact we've only missed 1 of the last 10 major tournaments should be something that's celebrated.
 

Red Warrior

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I dont think anyone thinks we have a right to win a World Cup,expecially these days for the reasons I stated above. Back in 86 when Maradona knocked us out, 1990 when we lost to the Germans in a penalty shootout, and again in the Euros in 96 were exciting times for England fans. We had a feeling we could actually win even though there were other good teams, we could hold our own against them, we had exciting players, the right tactics. There was a buzz about starting and progressing through a tournament.

I can only sit back and be thankful I saw it, getting so close for 3 tournaments running cos I don't think I will be in that position again in my lifetime. I can only be in awe of those alive in 66 when we won, the celebrations for days after must have been amazing! Whether @the nuts named eric thinks it was fluke, dodgy refereeing or whatever, we won and thats all that matters.
 

jsp

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I dont think anyone thinks we have a right to win a World Cup,expecially these days for the reasons I stated above. Back in 86 when Maradona knocked us out, 1990 when we lost to the Germans in a penalty shootout, and again in the Euros in 96 were exciting times for England fans. We had a feeling we could actually win even though there were other good teams, we could hold our own against them, we had exciting players, the right tactics. There was a buzz about starting and progressing through a tournament.

I can only sit back and be thankful I saw it, getting so close for 3 tournaments running cos I don't think I will be in that position again in my lifetime. I can only be in awe of those alive in 66 when we won, the celebrations for days after must have been amazing! Whether @the nuts named eric thinks it was fluke, dodgy refereeing or whatever, we won and thats all that matters.

Was that partly because back then we didn't really know what we'd be facing? Before 86 how many people knew how good Maradona was? How many had even seen him play? Now compare that to Messi before his first international tournament everyone know who he was.

We sort of know what we're up against now as we know who all these players are as they play in the European leagues plus the TV coverage of other nations means we've seen with our own eyes how good other nations it doesn't come as a surprise anymore. It's a bit easier to know your place in the world whereas before you could probably get swept away in the blind hysteria because we didn't really know how good other nations were. I was born in 86 so I don't really remember anything before Euro 96 from an England point of view obviously at that tournament we had a good side and I think we carried that into 98, we were weak in 00, 02,04&06 again a competitive side in 10 lots of talented individuals but not a great team but since then it's got progressively worse.

My dad was 7 when England won the world cup and he doesn't really remember it that well but he kind of suggests it wasn't seen as that big a deal at the time it wasn't like people were parting on the streets obviously he was 7 and he wasn't in a mad football family so it might be he was a bit insulated from it. Also, show me one team that won a world cup that hasn't had something go there way in a tournament, it's part of the game at this level fine margins can make all the difference be that a mistake from the opposition that gifts a goal, a miss from the opposition striker or a tight call that goes your way to win a tournament at some point in one of those 7 games you will get lucky.
 

Red Warrior

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Well whatever we knew or didn't know about other teams or players in the rest of the world we held our own all the way to a penalty shootout in a World Cup semi final with the team that went on to win it. We went into the tournament with a good chance, we had a good team and got progressively better game by game and literally went toe to toe with the Germans, there was nothing in it. We lost 4-3 on penalties (I think the ball Waddle hoofed over the bar into the night sky is still orbiting the earth it went that far over), everybody cried with Gazza, everybody remembers Lineker giving the 'keep you eye on him' gesture and everybody was distraught when we lost. Can you remember losing like that with England since you were born in 86? The closest to it was the other penalty shoot out, again to the Germans, again losing in the semis on Euro 96.

As you very rightly say, 00, 02, 04, 06, we didn't even make 08 Euro, 10 and 14 were all poor for a team like England and we had the so called 'Golden Generation' for at least half of those years.

Point I'm trying to make is England have lost their spark, we don't have the players anymore, the supporters are so used to abject failure there is no expectation to win anything. Supporters are losing interest.

Just as another point, football now is huge due to sky, the money involved etc etc. The World Cup Final at Wembley in 1966 was attended by 97,000 people. Are you telling me it wasn't celebrated throughout the country? :)
 

jsp

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Interesting thing to consider is watching football on TV or playing FIFA now bigger than playing football with your mates?

It sounds very simple how long do kids now spend playing football casually down the park or around garages etc like I'm sure we all did?

It's long been a major frustration of mine that in this country our top league generates billions in revenues from TV deals and yet facilities at the grass roots level in most areas haven't really been upgraded at all in the premier league era. We have a lot of these all weather pitches now which are great but they're nearly all pay to play facilities and the grass pitches are regularly sold off to developers, plus parents are more wary now of just letting the kids out to go and play.

Even more strange is academies are now picking up kids at 7-8 year olds and they're taking them in 100 at a time then they tell the kids they can't play for the local teams or schools any more which to me seems very backwards.

I think we've got a bit of a "missing generation" I do believe we've got talented kids coming through especially in attacking positions but we don't have many experienced players who are at their peak to help guide them through games. The experienced players in the team are Hart & Cahill but these are guys that only really know failure so you sort of think is it even worth having them in?
 

maxt7

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I just think the whole England national set up needs a completely reset. We as fans need to change our mind on how we think of England. And the FA needs to rethink how football is represented in this country.

England should be ran like a club side. There should be a set of players that are picked as often as possible to create a core and understanding throughout the whole team. I suggested a squad of around 18 players all under the age of 25 on this thread earlier. To which you add 5 more players either you can't drop or any break through stars that are emerging. The aim would be Euro 2020 and Qatar 2022. Russia would be a learning curve getting all the youngsters experience. We might not freeze if we've all been there before. We might know each other's games better if we all play together.

I think too much emphasis is based on form and where our players are playing. Look we all wanna see United Vs Chelsea in a champions league final again with 22 English lads on the pitch. But in reality in that scenario we'd see less then a handful. We want all our English lads playing for teams pushing for titles and trophies but the game in this county is so foreign and you've got to embrace that. That's not going to change. As long as the lads are playing somewhere even in the championship does it matter? We need to stop thinking that our lads need to be playing for the best teams or even in the prem at this moment in time. Look at the other home nations and Northern Ireland in particular. There's no elite players there. They don't all play at the top end of the game. There league 1 and 2 players in that squad. But they've got a real desire and hunger to battle and work hard for each other. They beat nations and sides who have a bigger and deeper talent pool because they are such a great team. Same players. Same manager. Constantly working with each other. It's a team effort. It's the opposite from where England are at the minute. We are relaying on an individuals skills to save us rather then a teams effort to pull us through.

If you look at the last euros the successful teams pick players they know despite form. France picked Gignac. the bloke was playing in Mexico at the time. Podolski to our shock keeps getting picked by Germany. But it's because they know him and his been part of the nations process. His been part of that squad regardless of his club form. Think back on that Portugal squad who won it. Eder, Carvalho or Bruno Alves could have all been dropped for these talent youngsters that they've got coming through but again the coach and the side know what these guys bring. Forget where they are playing and what standard it is, it's all about trust.

Someone said earlier we've got no right to win it because we won it 51 years ago. That's spot on. But surely this system and thought process we've had the past 50 years needs to be changed now? Because it's not working is it? Let's go different now. Let's try something new. People don't watch England or get excited by it because it feels like we are stuck in a rut. A young English vibrate side would get a buzz back.
 

jsp

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You're talking about the FA though the people who sit on those committees are probably the same people who were sat on them 50 years ago when we won the World Cup, everyone who's ever gone in to try and shake things up has said they face the same problems old blokes in blazers in positions of power that they can't get rid of. These are the people who don't subsidise coaching courses so it costs £3,000 to complete a course here that costs £500 to complete in Germany simply because they're swamped by debts from rebuilding Wembley. In a country with over 100 professional teams why do we need a national football stadium? As soon as the original one got ripped down Wembley was dead anyway whatever they built in it's place was not going to be Wembley so why bother wasting £750m to do it.

Also, the media in this country is savage the maintstream press give the national team a lot of coverage and they can quickly turn on managers depending on results they know that if England lose nothing sells quite like a savaging in the paper the next day.

The other major issue is we don't have an English style of play any more because our league is full of foreign managers and foreign players it helps make our league interesting because one week it's Pep's Spanish style vs Conte's Italian style then Mourinho Portugese style vs Klopp's German syle but it's not good for our young English players. Most teams in Germany/Spain/France/Italy play a certain way so when these players come through academies they're all playing the same way but in England we've lost our identity and we've kind of got a bit of everything being chucked in together and it doesn't really work. Germany/France/Spain churning out identical players regardless of which academy they come through isn't a fluke there's a logic behind it.

In terms of getting the buzz back there were still 68,000 people at Wembley on a monday night to watch the England side the day before most kids go back to school and in terms of attendance no other nation in the world competes with the number of people who come to watch England. Personally I'd want to get them back out on the road to help them connect with people all over the country as lets face it a midweek game at Wembley if you live north of Birmingham it's near impossible to go if you have work the next day.
 

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