Donny Van De Beek l Match Discussion Thread 2021/22

jsp

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So Donny got a full game vs West Ham.

How do people think he did?

I thought he did ok in difficult circumstances with all the changes but that is kind of his problem it was ok he needs a great performance to really make a lasting impact.

I'd say he was partly to blame on the goal he's a midfielder he shouldn't be rushing back to the 6 yard line to block a cross that was Lindelof's job his job was to make sure nothing could be cut back to the penalty spot. He failed to do that and it left the attacker with an easy chance.

He created our best chance of the game nice ball over the top to Greenwood who forced a decent save from the keeper.

In midfield thought he moved the ball well enough and certainly seemed to be up to the speed of the game him and Matic generally dominated the centre of the park against the West Ham midfield.

Just still don't see the lad fitting in with this squad and system looks a square peg in a round hole at Utd think he's made a bad career move in coming here and Utd have made a bad choice in spending the money to bring him in. Right now he looks at best the 5th choice central midfield option and I'd argue as a number 10 Lingard has moved ahead of him as the obvious back up to Bruno.
 

Cosmic Slop

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In fairness, there was an identical move to the one they scored on that came about 5 minutes earlier. I think Bowen had the shot though, but it was the same drive to the right side of the goal, pull the ball back from just before it went out and struck at more or less the same spot. In that earlier instance, VDB did not follow the ball. Also in that earlier interest, no one closed the player down. In retrospect you can see who scored and figure out who should not have left his side, but in the moment there were plenty of other players around doing feck all.

I think he performed well enough to sell Fred for parts. He shouldn't be considered a back up to Bruno anymore. He's a totally different style of player. He's a facilitator more than an instigator or creator. He's more like Hargreaves in that sense. He will do the hard yards, get the ball and immediately pass it. I think if he's asked to sit more he would pair well with McTominay. He's better in every area of the game than Fred. Lingard is a #10, VDB never was.

VDB came up through Ajax's system playing as both a 6 and an 8. His success at Ajax utilized them having wingers hugging the touch line which opened up "vertical lanes"[VDB tactical analysis] of passing, which was his specialty. We don't play that way. Our team has been tweaked to thrive under Bruno's roaming, and so when VDB comes in as deputy it's a different fit.

I think he's a better option than Fred.
 

jsp

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I think he was in panic mode and did what players do in panic mode he got close to goal but as the midfielder you aren't required to get into that position you need to be aware enough to stop the cut backs.

I don't think he spotted that danger went to deep and left a space for an easy finish Lindelof was already across to deal with the cross across the 6 yard box.

After that I think he did enough to justify more chances we are so short in midfield but if you're going to put a playmaker in that 2 more often than not it'll be Pogba plus one of the other guys I just don't see where this lad gets games unless we have injuries that force Ole's hand.
 

Cosmic Slop

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Against most opposition we don't need the extra layer of defense. Play VDB is a 2 with McTominay. They are both more the box-to-box type of player. With Bruno, Pogba, and Ronaldo all having (more or less) license to roam, they would stay in the center of the park, one sitting, the other advancing as needed.

VDB's defensive lapse for their goal also comes with the note that that entire XI didn't know who the feck they were playing with and it showed. VDB is doing extra because he doesn't want to be discarded, hence following the ball and making a mistake which will lead to him being dropped. He's in a vicious circle.
 

RichH2016

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I think he's one of those players who's never going to succeed at united. Not because he's not good enough, not because he's not got the quality but he's not given the chances to. He's another of those players who's thrown in to cup games and games where they make wholesale changes and he's expected to just produce.
 

jsp

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Pretty damning once again Utd chasing a goal and this lad isn't called from the bench.

Lingard who was out on loan last season is now back ahead of him in the pecking order.

I think he needs to leave in January if Utd can find a buyer even a loan move as he's surplus to requirements.
 

Mr C

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Because he's not an Ole signing hahaha, joke, we don't need to go there again.

As for Lingard, he's making a strong case to be a starter.
 

jsp

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Yep Lingard has done exactly what Donny hasn't done he's grabbed his opportunity through performances on the pitch he's making the manager pick him either as a starter or being his go to guy off the bench.
 

Macariman

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Pretty damning once again Utd chasing a goal and this lad isn't called from the bench.

Lingard who was out on loan last season is now back ahead of him in the pecking order.

I think he needs to leave in January if Utd can find a buyer even a loan move as he's surplus to requirements.
Yes let him leave in January, be it loan or sale, but jeezus we're talking about a fantastic young player who has been basically shafted!
 

jsp

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Yes let him leave in January, be it loan or sale, but jeezus we're talking about a fantastic young player who has been basically shafted!

Shafted is harsh.

It's his fault him and his agent clearly haven't done the homework and looked at how he fits in but yeah he needs to do what Lingard did and get out of there in January and play some football.

There's a video doing the rounds from the game where you can see him slamming his chewing gum into the floor as the subs are made.
 

Macariman

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Shafted is harsh.

It's his fault him and his agent clearly haven't done the homework and looked at how he fits in but yeah he needs to do what Lingard did and get out of there in January and play some football.

There's a video doing the rounds from the game where you can see him slamming his chewing gum into the floor as the subs are made.
If I was him, it would've been Ole's head, the poor guy's been shafted
 

Cruella ne Ville

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I don't understand this almost cult like following VdB has developed. He's a young player who excelled in the Dutch league and has struggled after a move to a big club, and yet there are people who want to cane the club over this like somehow we owe him something and the manager is an idiot for not playing him, despite the fact that he doesn't perform when played.
 

Mr C

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He's not done much to be fair. But neither has fred or mctom

It's getting to the point we might as well sign Wilshere on a pay if you play deal...... ;)

We must sort this position out come January
 

jsp

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I don't understand this almost cult like following VdB has developed. He's a young player who excelled in the Dutch league and has struggled after a move to a big club, and yet there are people who want to cane the club over this like somehow we owe him something and the manager is an idiot for not playing him, despite the fact that he doesn't perform when played.

Think a lot of it is when you're not playing suddenly your reputation goes up or maybe he's really good on FIFA for example.

I just watch him when he does come off the bench and think you'd probably look great in that City side with all the clever passing and rotations etc but at Utd he looks absolutely lost.

Fact is Ole watches this guy train every day and he's still picking guys who aren't exactly setting the world alight says to me he doesn't think he's good enough to help his team get better results.

Won't be easy to move him on if they do decide to let him go as the clubs outside of the PL are all broke.
 

RichH2016

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I don't understand this almost cult like following VdB has developed. He's a young player who excelled in the Dutch league and has struggled after a move to a big club, and yet there are people who want to cane the club over this like somehow we owe him something and the manager is an idiot for not playing him, despite the fact that he doesn't perform when played.
Because he's not actually been given a fair shake. Because other players at United seem to get a lot more chances despite putting in turgid performances.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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So, basically VdB should play bc Fred and Martial are crap, so if VdB is crap he should play too? What has he done in the time he’s had to warrant more opportunities?
 

Justin Cider

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It's a strange one, can't really recall(and I can go back to the late 60's) another highly-rated player brought in for a sizable amount of money and getting so little game-time unless there has been a Managerial change.

Not buying that Ole didn't want him though, more that he was brought in because the club felt Pogba was on his way out of the club.

With Pogba staying Donny is never gonna get in the team ahead of Bruno or Pogba even if he trains like a man possessed, and he's not strong enough to play centrally in a two, nor does he have the pace to play out wide so unless there's an injury crisis he's not gonna get a look-in.

Probably best for his career to move on, on loan at least till Pogba leaves, if permanently I wish the kid well.
 

jsp

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Your midfield pair is all about balance it has to work both on an individual level but also as a partnership two great players don't always make a great partnership (gerrard and lampard) but equally two pretty average players can make a good partnership.

Donny for me has the same problem Pogba has in that two he's a very attack minded player that's his natural instinct to try and go forward and break into the box but this system doesn't really allow for that to often it's all about controlling the middle of the pitch.

Even with Pogba gone I just don't see it ever working out for him here unless Utd change to a 4-3-3 possession based system which isn't very likely and would totally change the way Bruno has to play and the impact he has on games.

Just think this one needs to be chalked up as a bad buy bit like Kagawa was good player just didn't work out and wasn't really his fault but best for everyone to part ways and get a fresh start.
 

Mr C

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I didn't think Veron got a fair crack really. Although I think the league was a bit quick for him.

I don't think Donny is an attack minded player, he makes a lot of back and sideways passes. He seems to like it a bit more intricate, close quarter.

I would think his buddy at Barca would be better for us.
 

jsp

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Veron was a slightly different story Fergie wanted to change his style for Europe and go 1 up front as he felt the 4-4-2 was no longer working in Europe he saw we needed more control, this was around the time Queiroz also arrived. Veron became available due to a passport issue in Italy and Utd pounced but he never really gelled with Keane and Scholes found that new advanced role tough as as a 3 I don't think they ever really worked. Always felt like Keane and Veron were two players trying to do 1 mans job both were really good short passers that wanted to be in the middle of that three. That said it did really come together in 2002-03 when we won the title back from Arsenal Keane missed quite a lot of that season with injury and Veron from memory was good that season so it was a bit of a shock that we sold him that summer.

Veron came as a starting player went straight into the side whereas Donny I think from day one was signed as a squad player we never saw him as a starter and key part of the team. Felt to me like they hoped he could be a bit of a utility man but he feels a bit jack of all trades master of none in this side my worry with him is to get the best version of him he needs to be in a specific role which we don't have for him.

Donny made his name as the goal scoring midfielder in the Ajax team he was the most advanced of their 3 always breaking into the box and he was great in tight spaces around the box. This was the most eye catching part of his game yes he could do all the short passing and rotation you do at Ajax but really he was a goal scorer from midfield and that's what caught a lot of clubs attention. De Jong was always the guy in midfield who controlled the game which is why Barca were so desperate for him although I hear he's really struggling this season.

A player who arrived the same summer as Donny but cost a bit more money was Partey I think he'd have been great in our midfield two but I think we dodged a bullet with him as he's injured a lot. Arsenal spent £50m on him but feels to me like he misses about half the games with injuries but when he's fit I think he looks a good player.
 

Cosmic Slop

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Ole had a strange answer in his press conf. today when asked about VDB's frustration at not coming on against Villarreal. Ole started talking about he himself is the most subbed player in United history, and that he's managing a squad full of internationals who all want to play, and how VDB was ready, but then if a player is basically causing problems in the side he'll have to sort that out, but Donny wasn't doing that. He acknowledged that VDB was angry at not coming on but his reason was "Fred came on as left back and did a good job". Some of it is Ole not being a native English speaker but I think another significant part of it is Ole is hiding why VDB isn't playing.

It was a weird answer.

It does sound that VDB not playing is causing disharmony somewhere, maybe between different player factions. Ole basically said, "if a player has a bad attitude and is disrupting the squad I'll have to deal with them, but just so you know, Donny isn't doing that."
 

jsp

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Ole was quite clear that Donny has not been a bad person to have around he’s frustrated he isn’t playing but remains totally positive and is working hard to make sure he’s ready when a chance comes.

Ole knows how he must feel but he can’t just chuck him in if others deserve the chance ahead of him like Lingard.
 

SuperRash

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How many games do Fred and McT have to stink up the place before VDB gets a chance? Granted he hasn’t always done enough to warrant chances but least he is technically sound. Trying to find some way Ole can change things!
 

jsp

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How many games do Fred and McT have to stink up the place before VDB gets a chance? Granted he hasn’t always done enough to warrant chances but least he is technically sound. Trying to find some way Ole can change things!

This guy isn’t the answer unless we are playing him instead of Bruno.

The tactics have to change not necessarily the players and there’s some very fragile confidence in that squad right not because they can see this isn’t working.
 

SuperRash

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This guy isn’t the answer unless we are playing him instead of Bruno.

The tactics have to change not necessarily the players and there’s some very fragile confidence in that squad right not because they can see this isn’t working.
Could they not play together in a diamond?
 

jsp

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Could they not play together in a diamond?

Maybe but a diamond will make us very narrow as a side.

Who would play at the back of the diamond?

I just don’t get the obsession with this guy he’s been average whenever he’s played if he wants to play he needs to turn up when he gets on the pitch.
 

Mr C

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Are you saying, Fred, Mctom, Maguire, Shaw, Bruno, AWB etc etc hasn't been average?

It's not an obsession to change something that clearly is not working

This team has been awfully managed since Ronaldo arrived
 

SuperRash

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Maybe but a diamond will make us very narrow as a side.

Who would play at the back of the diamond?

I just don’t get the obsession with this guy he’s been average whenever he’s played if he wants to play he needs to turn up when he gets on the pitch.
I think it’s just a realisation that we need to try something different. Fred and McT get so many opportunities where as this guy doesn’t get a look in.

There probably is a valid point about him becoming better out of the side but if Ole had no faith in him then he should have been allowed to go somewhere in the summer.
 

jsp

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I think it’s just a realisation that we need to try something different. Fred and McT get so many opportunities where as this guy doesn’t get a look in.

There probably is a valid point about him becoming better out of the side but if Ole had no faith in him then he should have been allowed to go somewhere in the summer.

Why are we blaming those 2 for the recent poor performances?

Until that whole team learns how to play together it won’t matter what formation or which players get picked.

They need some proper coaching from someone who knows what they are doing.
 

Mr C

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It's a joke we are sticking with the same players is the point.
It's not working, so change the players or the formation. Don't just persist with same mistakes week in week out.
 

SuperRash

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It's a joke we are sticking with the same players is the point.
It's not working, so change the players or the formation. Don't just persist with same mistakes week in week out.
Yeah that’s the point I was making. I mentioned Fred and McT but they were merely examples of us sticking to the same players all the time.
 

RichH2016

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How many games do Fred and McT have to stink up the place before VDB gets a chance? Granted he hasn’t always done enough to warrant chances but least he is technically sound. Trying to find some way Ole can change things!
Until the manager changes he isn't going to get a chance. And even then if they do change the manager he may just want out anyway.
 

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