Winning from losing positions

O-Dog

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Whoscored which is one of my go to sites has him playing 40/60 DM/CM. So obviously does do the defensive side of the game too.
That sounds about right. He's not an out and out attacking midfielder, but he's not solely a defensive one either.

I'd want him playing ahead of, say Rice, helping create the space for Bruno to shine. The role Pogba or McT should be doing for us.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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Are you assuming that the players who are inconsistent or just plain poor are failing their manager? Or are you saying Ole is failing to get the best out of his players?

Is Ole relying on the double pivot because he has such a poor defensive unit or because he doesn't really have any other ideas?

I struggle with the idea that our squad is generally poor. I think we're two players short of a great side.

Being a couple of players short doesn't in itself account for many of the poor, disjointed performances we have seen this season. I think the coaching team need to hold their hands up for that one.

Ole's earnt the right to show he can improve. Next season he really needs to show he can get the best out of this group of players. That's what improvement is, right?
Apologies if I wasn't clear, but to clarify, I'm saying the squad isn't good enough. Without wanting to repeat everything Mr C said, our CBs are mediocre at best, and need the double pivot as a shield. Neither Fred or McTominay are good enough to do that role on their own, and neither offer much going forward. I don't think Ole has much choice in that matter. Keane was a rock back there and still got 50 goals. Fred/McTominay won't get 50 between them. Scholes was an attacking player who could break up play better than both of them, despite being unable to tackle. Our spine is far too weak and don't offer that base from which to attack.

The one thing I will have a conversation about re: coaching, is our movement. DvB's movement for our second v Brighton made that goal, which came from Ajax not from us. Too many times midfielders receive the ball with back to goal and just pass it straight back from whence it came. Wide players check back and slowly cycle the ball giving the defence time to reset, or they (Rashford) goes on a dribble down a blind alley with his head down. Is this because of our lack of creative players or is this coaching? Probably a bit of both, but it's something I'd like to see improved for next season.

Which 2 players do you think we need?
 

Cruella ne Ville

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I think we are short in key areas that cause a lot of our problems.

Our CB's are not great, but they are ok, that isn't a real problem for me.....yet.

Our two CM we play just are not good enough at defending, or attacking, so they leave the back 2 exposed, and the attack has no fluidity. You take Roy Keane, great defensively, equally as good going forward, he would get that ball to the players that can do damage quickly. Too many of our passes are too slow, or more often than not, do not get their destination.

Once that problem is solved we need a right sided player who can attack.

These are the positions we are desperate for.

We do need someone who can actually finish, but until these positions are filled it's pointless. So I would use Greenwood for now. Haaland has way too much backage, his been at Dortmund at year and Raiola is already touting him around Europe, same with Pogba. As good as Haaland is, way too much backage.

I'd like to Buy Bellingham and Rice. Maybe try Diallo for next season out right as those two would probably take a lot of wedge.
Great post, pal. Couldn't agree more. On Haaland, Honigstein was on the Ornstein and Champan podcast talking about his "too good to be here" attitude at Dortmund, and how it's causing friction within their squad. He also mentioned that this grand tour Raiola is on is in preparation for next summer when he can leave for the release clause, and demand higher salary, agent fees, sign on fee etc. If this is true, then I'd want no part of that, despite his talent.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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At the risk of displaying my ignorance, didn't Dortmund buy Bellingham to replace Sancho? Perhaps I should pay more attention...
 

jsp

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At the risk of displaying my ignorance, didn't Dortmund buy Bellingham to replace Sancho? Perhaps I should pay more attention...

I don’t think so he was another top young player signed to fatten up before taking to market.

They’ve been running this model for years now buy up lots of top young talent give them a chance then sell them on for huge profits.

They knew like Sancho if this kid kicked on they could make a fortune.

You wonder if his agent was as clever as Haaland’s to get a release clause that gives the player more options after 2 years.

It sounds like Utd we’re close with Bellingham but his family felt he stood more chance of playing regular first team football at Dortmund and the example of Sancho probably helped that. Utd has not been an easy place for young kids not from our academy to develop in recent years and you wonder did Utd think he would need a loan move rather than going straight into the first team squad.
 

O-Dog

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Apologies if I wasn't clear, but to clarify, I'm saying the squad isn't good enough. Without wanting to repeat everything Mr C said, our CBs are mediocre at best, and need the double pivot as a shield. Neither Fred or McTominay are good enough to do that role on their own, and neither offer much going forward. I don't think Ole has much choice in that matter. Keane was a rock back there and still got 50 goals. Fred/McTominay won't get 50 between them. Scholes was an attacking player who could break up play better than both of them, despite being unable to tackle. Our spine is far too weak and don't offer that base from which to attack.

The one thing I will have a conversation about re: coaching, is our movement. DvB's movement for our second v Brighton made that goal, which came from Ajax not from us. Too many times midfielders receive the ball with back to goal and just pass it straight back from whence it came. Wide players check back and slowly cycle the ball giving the defence time to reset, or they (Rashford) goes on a dribble down a blind alley with his head down. Is this because of our lack of creative players or is this coaching? Probably a bit of both, but it's something I'd like to see improved for next season.

Which 2 players do you think we need?
We'll have to agree to disagree about the CBs.

To paraphrase a great comment after a recent match, when Maguire looks in the mirror he sees Rio staring back. He needs to realise he's the brawn, not the brains. Maguire has it in him to be our hardman talisman, the rock at the back. Lindelof and Bailly are both more agile, so let them roam whilst Maguire sits back ready to clobber whoever breaks through. If money were no object, then a very cultured CB with no injury issues would be nice. I don't consider it essential.

Fred's not good enough, full stop. McT has the potential to be an excellent box-to-box midfielder. He should be sharing that no.8 role with Pogba.

The two players we need are a defensive mid, a classic no.6 so to speak. And a striker.

With regards the no.6 role, Garner might be worth bringing back and he could provide cover for the new signing. Rice would be good or Ndidi.

A midfield squad of Rice, Garner, McT and Pogba sounds good to me. Two defensive, two box-to-box.

Kane would be my choice for striker. Haaland will be a good option, but a bit more bothersome potentially. If Kane signed, it would be his last big move. My fear is Haaland would be using us as a stepping stone to Spain.

Henderson
Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, AWB
Rice, Pogba, Bruno
Rashford, Kane, Greenwood
 

boothstownred

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I think last summers transfer window has caused us a problem. We did not bring people in that were natural starters. A couple of them fattened up the squad a little bit but not the first eleven. Plus we have had a right flank problem for about 6 years. We signed two young kids who may or may not make it. If we go and spend big money on Sancho that would make it so much more difficult for the two kids, but if they do not sign anyone and the kids do not make it then we have a problem.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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We'll have to agree to disagree about the CBs.

To paraphrase a great comment after a recent match, when Maguire looks in the mirror he sees Rio staring back. He needs to realise he's the brawn, not the brains. Maguire has it in him to be our hardman talisman, the rock at the back. Lindelof and Bailly are both more agile, so let them roam whilst Maguire sits back ready to clobber whoever breaks through. If money were no object, then a very cultured CB with no injury issues would be nice. I don't consider it essential.

Fred's not good enough, full stop. McT has the potential to be an excellent box-to-box midfielder. He should be sharing that no.8 role with Pogba.

The two players we need are a defensive mid, a classic no.6 so to speak. And a striker.

With regards the no.6 role, Garner might be worth bringing back and he could provide cover for the new signing. Rice would be good or Ndidi.

A midfield squad of Rice, Garner, McT and Pogba sounds good to me. Two defensive, two box-to-box.

Kane would be my choice for striker. Haaland will be a good option, but a bit more bothersome potentially. If Kane signed, it would be his last big move. My fear is Haaland would be using us as a stepping stone to Spain.

Henderson
Shaw, Lindelof, Maguire, AWB
Rice, Pogba, Bruno
Rashford, Kane, Greenwood
I'd have a proper Eastern European nasty SOB to partner Maguire, so it just goes to show you. Totally agree on Fred, he'd be on my 'sell for whatever you can get' list, and Kane would be on my 'pay whatever they want' list. While I would add a CB and RW to that list, I would agree that a DM and CF are priorities.

For me, Ndidi is the man for the #6 job, but I haven't seen that much of Rice. What am I missing?
 

Shot

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Guys, we don’t have entitlement to all the best players from everybody else’s teams.
We need to be building a team by finding and developing talent, alongside the odd “ready made” player to help that development.
I don’t go with this “at any price” malarkey. The fee’s being quoted for some of these players is totally nuts. We can’t go there.
The reason the likes of your Haaland’s go to the likes of your Dortmund’s is because that is how the game is played out these days. It wouldn’t suit the agent if he had come to OT to settle down to a 10-12 year career with us. Such players are now commodities and advised how to max their earning potential as opposed to best career choices.
 

Macariman

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There’s been plenty of good performances through the season but yes there’s a lot of games where it’s been a case of playing badly and winning but that happened a lot during the glory days.

Still plenty to sort out in the squad and certainly the starting XI over the next transfer window.

Utd I think wasted last summers window this summer I think he need to nail 2 or 3 starting quality players.
Let's put it plain , we r all Man U supporters. Agreed ? We can put forward our opinions, but the fact remains, we are nowhere near top notch , believe it or not . This season , we were knocked out the ECL at group stage. Didn't reach the League.Cup final. Got thrashed in the FA Cup 1/4 final , will end up a lot of points off the.EPL title , hey , but , we might just win the Euro Mickey Mouse cup ? Happy with that ?
 

jsp

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Let's put it plain , we r all Man U supporters. Agreed ? We can put forward our opinions, but the fact remains, we are nowhere near top notch , believe it or not . This season , we were knocked out the ECL at group stage. Didn't reach the League.Cup final. Got thrashed in the FA Cup 1/4 final , will end up a lot of points off the.EPL title , hey , but , we might just win the Euro Mickey Mouse cup ? Happy with that ?

We are Man Utd supporters yes but we also have to recognise where we are currently as a club.

We were badly managed from top to bottom for about 5 years post Fergie totally lost our identity as a club that is slowly being put back in place. I think the last few seasons the club has finally got its act together and stopped acting like Real Madrid and acting like Man Utd again. They aren’t obsessed with the statement signings and big brand names they’re building a young hungry squad and they’ve put right the wrongs done with the academy.

This season we are on track for a better points total than last season and in April have a chance of a trophy which is what we expect. No we won’t win the league but we will be a lot closer to the winners this season than last season but it still highlights the size of the next hurdle to get over.

I’d much rather win the league or champions league than the Europa but it’s what we’ve got to fight for so let’s fight for it put it in the trophy cabinet and hope for better next season.

This team do my head in but they are by far the best team to watch since Fergie left they just need to find a more clinical way of turning draws into wins.
 

Macariman

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We are Man Utd supporters yes but we also have to recognise where we are currently as a club.

We were badly managed from top to bottom for about 5 years post Fergie totally lost our identity as a club that is slowly being put back in place. I think the last few seasons the club has finally got its act together and stopped acting like Real Madrid and acting like Man Utd again. They aren’t obsessed with the statement signings and big brand names they’re building a young hungry squad and they’ve put right the wrongs done with the academy.

This season we are on track for a better points total than last season and in April have a chance of a trophy which is what we expect. No we won’t win the league but we will be a lot closer to the winners this season than last season but it still highlights the size of the next hurdle to get over.

I’d much rather win the league or champions league than the Europa but it’s what we’ve got to fight for so let’s fight for it put it in the trophy cabinet and hope for better next season.

This team do my head in but they are by far the best team to watch since Fergie left they just need to find a more clinical way of turning draws into wins.
Sounds like you're quite happy with Real Madrid having won the ECL 13 times , us, only 3 ?
But we are making progress, honestly !
 

IDFD

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Sounds like you're quite happy with Real Madrid having won the ECL 13 times , us, only 3 ?
But we are making progress, honestly !

Do you think things can just change overnight and not acknowledge that progress is being made?

Everyone wants to be the best team in the world but you've got to try and have some slight bit of realism to you.
 

Shot

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Sounds like you're quite happy with Real Madrid having won the ECL 13 times , us, only 3 ?
But we are making progress, honestly !
You must have been a bundle of fun when Macari got us demoted to Division 2 in his first season
 

jsp

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Sounds like you're quite happy with Real Madrid having won the ECL 13 times , us, only 3 ?
But we are making progress, honestly !

I’m pretty happy seeing my team win 2 European cups in my lifetime before I hit 35.

Real Madrid having won 13 just is what it is good for them but it doesn’t make me look down on what my club has done in my lifetime. I’d say during the 90’s/00’s we probably could have picked up another 1 or 2 but sometimes you just come up short.

Utd recently have matched the spending of pretty much every club in the world we’ve just done a pretty rubbish job of it.

I don’t expect Utd to win a league or a champions league every season but I expect them to challenge for them but after this long being nowhere near seeing us get closer year after year is surely a good thing.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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Guys, we don’t have entitlement to all the best players from everybody else’s teams.
We need to be building a team by finding and developing talent, alongside the odd “ready made” player to help that development.
I don’t go with this “at any price” malarkey. The fee’s being quoted for some of these players is totally nuts. We can’t go there.
The reason the likes of your Haaland’s go to the likes of your Dortmund’s is because that is how the game is played out these days. It wouldn’t suit the agent if he had come to OT to settle down to a 10-12 year career with us. Such players are now commodities and advised how to max their earning potential as opposed to best career choices.
No, we don't, but I think it comes down to, a) we used to be able to outspend other clubs which isn't the case anymore and b) those are the players we know, and if they can fill a need, then they get mentioned. I would agree that these transfer fees are out of control, but it's not my money, and I'd rather it went toward new signings that I will enjoy watching vs Florida to prop up a failing strip mall. Also, I'd prefer the club spent on transfer fees and not on ridiculous wages which become a problem in the dressing room.
 

Macariman

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I think last summers transfer window has caused us a problem. We did not bring people in that were natural starters. A couple of them fattened up the squad a little bit but not the first eleven. Plus we have had a right flank problem for about 6 years. We signed two young kids who may or may not make it. If we go and spend big money on Sancho that would make it so much more difficult for the two kids, but if they do not sign anyone and the kids do not make it then we have a problem.
Leeds and Wolves have excellent right wingers , who have proved , they are well capable in the EPL. Either could be bought for a reasonable price !
 

Macariman

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You must have been a bundle of fun when Macari got us demoted to Division 2 in his first season
Said , wasn't born then. Was born in the year Macari was instrumental in us gaining promotion , then the following year he scored the winner at Wembley tho !
 

Shot

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Said , wasn't born then. Was born in the year Macari was instrumental in us gaining promotion , then the following year he scored the winner at Wembley tho !
I think your confused. the only promotion you could be talking about is when we came straight back up to Div 1 in 75 having gone down the previous season. We won the cup in 77 but Macari didnt score.
 

Macariman

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I think your confused. the only promotion you could be talking about is when we came straight back up to Div 1 in 75 having gone down the previous season. We won the cup in 77 but Macari didnt score.
Not confused mate , born in 75 , yeah , the final was 77 , my apologies ( I was only 2 years old at the time ) every time I've seen replays of it , it's Macari bursting into the box and his shot at goal , did end up in the back of the net via a wicked deflection? Would still credit him with it tho ?
 

Macariman

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" would be interested to hear thoughts & opinions on Ole's belief that success isn't measured by trophies won ?
Is being runners up , beaten finalists , i.e. perennial bridesmaid , sufficient? "
 

jsp

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" would be interested to hear thoughts & opinions on Ole's belief that success isn't measured by trophies won ?
Is being runners up , beaten finalists , i.e. perennial bridesmaid , sufficient? "

Ole wants to win and won’t be happy with anything less than success but his point about measure progress with cups is a valid one. Just look at Arsenal got that FA Cup but have gone backwards in the league.

The league is always your true barometer of quality in cups you can get lucky in a league you end up where you deserve to end up that season.

Ole will do everything he can to put us back on top and he won’t be happy until he does that but the question will be can he do it? Not just because he still needs better players but as a manager is he good enough to deliver a title.
 

Cruella ne Ville

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" would be interested to hear thoughts & opinions on Ole's belief that success isn't measured by trophies won ?
Is being runners up , beaten finalists , i.e. perennial bridesmaid , sufficient? "
Ole fully understands the need for trophies. What he's saying, is that we're building something that isn't ready to win the league, yet, but is on course to get us there. Abandoning that becuase we won't win the league this season (and might not win the EL either) would be insanity. There are good things (successes) happening that should be celebrated, even though they are not the end goal (trophies, our perch back), as recognizing them along the way increases motivation, belief and investment (emotional and financial from the board) in what we're doing.

You'll notice Jose stuck his oar in because it's very much a slight on his time here where he built nothing but a toxic waste dump, yet won a few trophies.
 

Macariman

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Ole fully understands the need for trophies. What he's saying, is that we're building something that isn't ready to win the league, yet, but is on course to get us there. Abandoning that becuase we won't win the league this season (and might not win the EL either) would be insanity. There are good things (successes) happening that should be celebrated, even though they are not the end goal (trophies, our perch back), as recognizing them along the way increases motivation, belief and investment (emotional and financial from the board) in what we're doing.

You'll notice Jose stuck his oar in because it's very much a slight on his time here where he built nothing but a toxic waste dump, yet won a few trophies.
Well said mate , candid and frank !
 

Macariman

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Ole wants to win and won’t be happy with anything less than success but his point about measure progress with cups is a valid one. Just look at Arsenal got that FA Cup but have gone backwards in the league.

The league is always your true barometer of quality in cups you can get lucky in a league you end up where you deserve to end up that season.

Ole will do everything he can to put us back on top and he won’t be happy until he does that but the question will be can he do it? Not just because he still needs better players but as a manager is he good enough to deliver a title.
Yes , that really is a good point, the league can be used as a season's barometer. And also the million dollar question, is he good enough ?
Certainly hope so !
 

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