West Brom Post Game

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jsp

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#1
i mean do we even have a plan when attacking? What was the plan on how we score a goal today

Today like last week we’ve got no clue what we are doing with the ball but unlike last week we didn’t have a team who completely clocked off 2nd half.

West Brom sitting deep nice and compact yet time and time again we try forcing it up the middle wide players coming inside and full backs providing no quality.

Think we got the selection wrong at the start and the subs just made it worse, Pogba wasn’t playing great but subbing him left us with no midfield if he was that worried then hook him at half time that 2nd sub left us in a horrible shape.

This week was us at our worst slow and predictable everyone hoping that someone else stepped up to get us the victory no one stepped up and took control of the game.

Still very little sign of a team forming here just good players who all play their own little game no obvious style of play.
 

maxt7

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#2
We can't deal with team that don't attack us. When teams sit behind the ball we don't move it with any tempo. We don't switch it quick enough. We don't cross it the ball as often as we should. Classic example today of a team of similar minded, similar positioned players all playing on top of each other. Forget the stone wall penalty we should be craving chances out against these today we we didn't.

I'd say in the space of 8 days we've seen the best performance from us, in that city second half last week and today the worst performance of the season. And I just don't know why. Post Fergie we've never got on a roll where we are firing. It's like we are constantly grinding out results. Everything's an effort.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#3
Same old story; too slow, too many touches, too many backward passing and the three man midfield was unnecessary.
 

jsp

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#4
Liverpool & Chelsea at home we’re much more impressive performances than City that game was just madness we turned it around with a good 15-20 mins but City really piled it on at the end and first half should have been 4 or 5.

Today just showed against these teams there is no plan they’ve had all week to prepare for this and it was like they hadn’t bothered just assumed we’d turn up score a few goals and win.
 

maxt7

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#5
Thought Jose post match interview was spot on. But there's underling problems here. We've not got the a winning mentality here at the minute.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#7
Not sure winning mentality is relevant to today's performance.

The attacking play was very narrow, which is easier to defend against. Using the full width of the pitch will create bigger gaps between centre backs and full backs.
 

boothstownred

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#8
Lost count of the times Valencia was one on one with brunt and never once attacked him. Mata and alexis will always play narrow so if those 2 are the wide players we need better full backs
 

maxt7

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#9
Not sure winning mentality is relevant to today's performance.

The attacking play was very narrow, which is easier to defend against. Using the full width of the pitch will create bigger gaps between centre backs and full backs.
The attitude in the squad has been a problem all season for me. There's no desire to hit a certain standard and maintain it. There's an arrogance in our squad that we will turn up and just win. And over the course of the season we've dropped silly points because of it. You can't beat Liverpool, City and Chelsea in recent weeks and then turn in a performance like that today. We were woeful. You can't win every week but you have to give it a better go then that.

People are quick to moan at the manager and the tactics he plays but when you listen to things like he said after the game today, And your hear him saying what we all are all saying now. His thinking what we all thinking now. His confused why we were so poor today, as we all are as well. His not delueded or clueless.

So the blame goes on the players for me. Players that perform one week then not the next have to be questioned about their attitude, their desire and their determination. A winning mentality is turning up every week, performing to your best and doing what it takes to win. We don't have anywhere near enough examples of that in this squad. We are missing characters and leaders out there big time for me. Losing is part of the game but we wasn't anywhere near where we should have been today.
 
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#10
Well... I would like to say congratulations to Manchester City for their title win this year. Thoroughly deserved and they have set the bar for which everyone else needs to strive for.

Hopefully this team is up to the challenge. I have my doubts though given the manager.
 

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#11
I would like to echo your sentiments regarding City. They’ve been fantastic this season and we are winners and shouldn’t be sore losers. They took the league by storm was it 19 wins in a row? No one had a chance. I doubt we’ll see anything like it again. Broke the record wins streak by 5 games
 

Mr C

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#12
The players are totally at fault. Pogba was awful, the posters saying why play a 3 man midfield, because our 90m player cant play in another position, and if he does his agent runs to City. Pogba is a problem for Jose, can't see anyone taking him. Not saying yesterday was Pogba's fault, but he should be bossing the games, setting the standard and bringing other players along with him.
 

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#13
Alright boys, been away for a month or so, not been on, what have I missed? haha, that yesterday dear me where to start, we look so awkward when we try to attack, everyone has to have 75 touches before releasing it, semi on sat then get the bloody season done with, were sooo dull to watch was nearly ripping my eyes out yesterday!

Hope your all well lads
 

maxt7

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#14
The players are totally at fault. Pogba was awful, the posters saying why play a 3 man midfield, because our 90m player cant play in another position, and if he does his agent runs to City. Pogba is a problem for Jose, can't see anyone taking him. Not saying yesterday was Pogba's fault, but he should be bossing the games, setting the standard and bringing other players along with him.
I completely agree with this.

Pogba has to do so much more. So much. This 2 man or 3 man midfield debate is rubbish because his not performing in either. People moaning at the choice of a 3 man midfield yesterday surprise me. Who was he going drop from the city game to go back to a 2 man? Pogba after his 2 goals? Matic who hasn't been dropped all season and our only holding midfielder or Ander who played the best he had all season?

The only questionable call was going Mata over a Martial or Rashford for the pace in my eyes. But even so the fact that none of those players want to play wide right anyway would still have meant we would have all been bunched over the left. He stuck 1 decent cross into Lukaku all day yesterday and Foster produced a world class save. That isn't enough. We have to do that more from both sides to get the best out f Rom.

I questioned the players mentality yesterday and I stand by that on reflection. Can't be beating Liverpool then losing to Sevilla then Beat City and lose to WBA. Can't be dropping that many points over Xmas when the heat was on and players were tired. We need a real spark in that side. A real leader. Someone who's going to set a standard for other to follow or be barked at. Maybe we need a Vidal this summer. Or someone with real calibre who's won things and dome things. Someone who will demand the best from players like Pogba and make him do it constantly.
 

Red Warrior

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#15
@Edgy1968 welcome back mate!

What an embarrassment!
The players were full at fault yesterday. They looked like 11 players who had never met each other and been told to go play football together. I knew after the first 10 mins what kind of afternoon we'd be in for. But, the substitutions were terrible.

Problems:
Pogba can't play with Sanchez, they get in each others way.
Pogba is just too inconsistent. He is our heartbeat, if he isn't firing on all cylinders its clear the rest of the team don't. JM has problems on his hands with Pogba big time. Might be an idea to buy a midfielder to REPLACE him and see if he bucks his ideas up.
We have 2 FB's that can't cross naturally and offer very little going forward. We'd be better off with Young at rb as at least he can whip in a cross on his right, get Shaw on the left as he can do the same. Surely Shaw can't do any worse at LB than Young has. Young and Valencia are so predictable in the final third. We really need 2 decent FB's before anything else in the summer.
Everything and everyone goes down the middle
Everyone is too slow and static
Everyone taking too many touches, build up play is so god damn slow
Matic is just too slow with everything and has turned into Carrick playing sidewards and backwards all the time. We'd have been better off hooking him and leaving Herrera on. At least he is quick and puts himself about and looks FORWARD.
Lingard came on and offered nothing
It clearly wasnt working up front, why not hook Lukaku for a change and give Rashford a chance to have a go at them.
Mata gets put on the right and spends most of the game down the middle or left. Get out of the way of people who are meant to be playing there and stay right man ffs.

Need to do some work now lol but the list could go on......

As a footnote I actually commented on redcafe earlier last week saying the West Brom game had banana skin written all over it. Boy was I right!
 

jsp

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#16
The players are totally at fault. Pogba was awful, the posters saying why play a 3 man midfield, because our 90m player cant play in another position, and if he does his agent runs to City. Pogba is a problem for Jose, can't see anyone taking him. Not saying yesterday was Pogba's fault, but he should be bossing the games, setting the standard and bringing other players along with him.
Well he wasn't playing in a 3 at the start of the season when he was ripping it up or when he returned from his injury and was very impressive again, Pogba & Matic in a 2 man midfield is fine when we play weaker sides at home because Matic sits and Pogba attacks.

The issue yesterday was the width from the full backs was terrible neither really ever ran in behind and cut a ball back the best crosses in the game came when Lukaku drifted wide and put in a few great balls but then there is no one there to finish them off. Valencia can't do his push and run to get in behind anymore and Ashley Young always needs to cut back any right back who falls for his fake cross on his left before turning back on his right should just retire.

Pogba wasn't great yesterday but again picking him out is pointless because no one had a good game yesterday apart from De Gea the worst culprit for me was Matic he was awful yesterday weak in the tackle, sloppy with his passing and obviously at fault on the goal you can't head it back across your own 6 yard box even under pressure.

The subs were just desperate he kept chucking on attackers and we ended up in some weird shape where Martial & Rashford played on top of each other.

The manager is right to question the attitude of players who think winning the derby is mission accomplished a club like Utd celebrates winning trophies not one off league games but yesterday everything was flat from the players to the fans to the manager. West Brom sensed that they knew if they stayed tight and compact Utd would give them a sniff eventually and we did 3 or 4 times they carved us open quite easily.
 
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#17
The issue yesterday was the width from the full backs was terrible neither really ever ran in behind and cut a ball back the best crosses in the game came when Lukaku drifted wide and put in a few great balls but then there is no one there to finish them off. Valencia can't do his push and run to get in behind anymore and Ashley Young always needs to cut back any right back who falls for his fake cross on his left before turning back on his right
That is easily one of the biggest issues we have right now. Young just cuts inside but when there a mountain of WBA defenders in there it has to be gun shot precise to find a man. Valencia looks about 50 years old now and like you say can’t do those thrusts anymore.

When the full backs cut back inside and pass to the midfield it just holds up play, means we look static and teams are able to keep a shape. The full back positions have to be sorted out in the summer. Valencia and Young have been good servants but we can’t stand on sentiment, neither of them are good enough for their respective positions and need to be upgraded for sure.

As for the game as a whole. We were absolute tripe. It looked like we didn’t really care, Pogba did a million step overs without achieving anything. Martial looked thoroughly disinterested when he came on. Even the usually reliable Mata did nothing.

This is where we need to get better next season, there is no good having a good record against the top six but fail to blow away the lesser lights.
 

jsp

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#18
To be fair the home record this season is pretty good think we've had 2 defeats (city & wba) and 2 draws (southampton & burnley) at home so assuming we take maximum points in remaining games that is a pretty good season at home especially compared to recent seasons where home form was a big problem. We've had quite a few games that were maybe closer than we had hoped where we couldn't quite put a side away and as I've said De Gea has had quite a few games where he's been busier than we'd maybe hope our keeper to be but that is what he's there for.

The issue really is while Utd have put together a good season City have put together a brilliant season which makes us look bad they've gone to every ground in the country and tried to play their way and they've dominated every game apart from Liverpool away, no one has been able to go toe to toe with them. I don't think we've seen a team dominate it the way they have done this season for a long time probably since the 00 & 01 Utd side who were miles better than everyone else in England at that time. I think the 07-09 team was the best PL team because they won 3 in a row and a European Cup at a time when the top 4 in England where 4 of the top 6 teams in Europe in my opinion.

Yesterday was a side either without a plan or one that couldn't be bothered to stick to the plan and that undeserved arrogance they carry was back the hard work and focus that has served us well over the last month was gone and it was back to passing the buck on to the next guy and hoping he wins the game from everyone no one stepped up and said this is my game I'm going to win it for us. The manager came out afterwards and said he was worried but I don't recall seeing him coming to the touchline to shout at anyone and try to wake his team up during the game it seemed like he was happy to just let the game drift away.
 

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#19
Mourinho should shoulder most of the blame for the quality of performances we've seen this season. Other managers would get a different tune from the players at the club. There was bit of a buzz around Old Trafford prior to kick off following the derby but that soon disappeared.
 

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#20
You’re right other managers would have them singing a different tune. Klopp would have them getting caught out time and time again and struggling to make top 4. LVG would have them passing sidesway even more often and Moyes would leave Lukaku on the bench to play Rooney.

This is our best season post Fergie it’s taken time but we are moving in the right direction under Mourinho
 

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#21
Sat chatting to a few mates about all this last night and we were laughing that the most entertained I think we've been since Fergie retired was the few games Giggs was in charge where we attacked with pace and width! Agree with the boys the full backs are just so poor right now, everyone feels like they have to cut inside every single time they get the ball, pass along the 18 yard box, what has happened to wingers who attack fullbacks, its like their a dying breed at our club.

Think @jsp said it above that Martial just looked totally disinterested when he came on, the ball where he left it to arrive at his feet, a WBA player nicked in and rather than chase back he threw his arms up in the air, if that's your attitude then go to PSG and win a tin pot league, full backs and our wingers need sorting once and for all as it feels a lifetime now we have been dealing with playing either strikers or no. 10's as wingers and it just does not work, bite the bullet get rid of whoever you need to get rid of, bring back some balance to the attack so we actually attack with a purpose down both flanks and not "ah if we score we score if we don't we don't", which is what it feels like at the minute.
 

Edgy1968

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#22
You’re right other managers would have them singing a different tune. Klopp would have them getting caught out time and time again and struggling to make top 4. LVG would have them passing sidesway even more often and Moyes would leave Lukaku on the bench to play Rooney.

This is our best season post Fergie it’s taken time but we are moving in the right direction under Mourinho
I do think the players need to take a lot of the responsibility for some of the performances as its them and not Jose who are running around with no energy or intensity, taking far to many touches, passing at pedestrian pace, no movement and the decision making has been shocking, we can't just lay the blame of that at the manager there has to be a certain professional pride, and where are the leaders? Where are the Roy Keane's of this squad demanding more, giving people a kick up the backside when there not pulling their weight etc.

If you look at every single stat we have improved, possession, home form, away form, goals for, goals against, points gained, points against the top 6 etc.

My only issue with Jose is the way he sets up, the football has been absolutely dire to watch at times and the way he set up against Sevilla was borderline unforgivable, especially the fact that the Champions League was so open this year we easily could have had a chance of getting to the final if he had actually gone for it.
 

jsp

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#23
The biggest issue I see is right now the club, fans, manager & players are all pulling seperate ways on certain things whereas you look at City, Spurs & Liverpool everything is together and whereas Utd seem like the club and manager are on the same page but not all the players are with the manager and the fans certainly aren't. It's similar at Chelsea & Arsenal at the moment where you don't have that sense of togetherness.
 

Edgy1968

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#24
Yeah 100% agree with that, its such a hard one because if we finish 2nd and manage to somehow get past Spurs this weekend, then its a huge improvement again on last season with really the only downside is the Champions League, I don't know about you boys but the style of football is just draining the life out of me.
 

Red Warrior

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#25
Top and bottom of it is we have too many issues on the pitch and it's obviously affecting the players. Sanchez coming in, to me, has played a big part in this. If he had been bought in to play on the right then it would have been fine but it's ruined Martial who was scoring for fun the few games before Sanchez came, Pogba's form has hit rock bottom since then, Rashford now has practically zero game time and Sanchez seems to be playing like a headless chicken most weeks in as many positions as he can get himself in. Even Lingard's form has dropped since then.
Sanchez has had 11 and a half terrible games out of 12 in a Utd shirt, he's keeping out Tony Martial and Rashford and other players are deteriorating because of him. Surely this needs to be sorted as priority. It's getting to the point that I don't want Sanchez around, it's turned into a nightmare signing and it shouldn't be like that with a world class player.

Other issues are the full backs seem to have got the 'run down the wing and then pass back 45 degrees' down to a tee. This slows us right down every single time. It's child's play for other teams to regroup in 2 banks of 4 in front of us then all we do is knock it around aimlessly as there are 8 opposition players and 4 or 5 of our players all within 20 sq m. We play with no width whatsoever so everyone is crowding down the middle. Jose is meant to be the master tactician but even I, who has zero tactical sense can see this.

Can the club and manager see what we see??
 

IDFD

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#27
Can you imagine this defence being exposed by Klopps formation. Mourinho's formations are partly to protect our poor back 4. Klopp would be too tactically inept to deal with this and want Valencia and Young bombing up the bitch leaving Bambi on Ice and Bailly regularly as a 2 on their own at the back. It'd be terrible viewing and we'd be regularly hammered.

We'd probably score more but we'd definitely concede a lot more too.
 

maxt7

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#28
The biggest issue I see is right now the club, fans, manager & players are all pulling seperate ways on certain things whereas you look at City, Spurs & Liverpool everything is together and whereas Utd seem like the club and manager are on the same page but not all the players are with the manager and the fans certainly aren't. It's similar at Chelsea & Arsenal at the moment where you don't have that sense of togetherness.
It's hard to say weather that is true or not. Simply because so much rubbish is spoken and said about United everyday by people not even close to the club, then people start to believe whats written in a paper or said by a pundit rather then seeing whats in front of them at times. I'll give you examples; the players celebrating after the City win, both with each other and with the fans. Or Jose doing his post match interview for the BBC after the Liverpool match and Pogba coming over during it to give him a hug to celebrate that victory. These things dont suggest to me that there's any extra friction behind the scenes, and both these events happened recently. It seems they all want the same things and are pulling the way way.

It's easy to make a storm in a teacup about a manager dropping under performing players and the press love to do that at our club. Especially if they are English, especially if they are young and even more if they cost alot of money. Notice not one has mentioned anything about John Stones lack of game time ahead of the world cup but Rashford is under the cosh everyday. The fact is under performing players get dropped week in week out at team in the world. After that result at the weekend players will and should be dropped for tomorrow night. Its completely understandable but the press will stir it up because its Manchester United.

I look at those United players dealing with the pressure of playing for our club and churning out a lackluster performance like that on Sunday and I would hope in that dressing room everyone is unhappy. Everyone is mad. Everyone is frustrated. Both the manager and the players should be angry at themselves and each other. That is normal friction and a normal emotion to have at a top club. So i'm glad they all seem annoyed this week and it looks bad because i'm hoping they smash Bournemouth and Spurs and make up for that on Sunday. Being unhappy in a moment doesn't necessarily mean there is a greater problem behind the scene like the press keep telling us.
 
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#29
I don't really get why Pogba is coming in for such a lashing. I mean this whole "he's a £90M player and so he should fit in a two man midfield" is just utter nonsense.

So Sanchez should be great in any attacking role? And Messi can play anywhere and not just from the right?

You've got to maximise the talent of your players and Pogba performs much much better in a three man midfield. Start using him that way or you may as well not use him at all...
 

IDFD

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#30
So Sanchez should be great in any attacking role? And Messi can play anywhere and not just from the right?
This argument doesn't really hold up. Sanchez has proven himself as a RW/LW/AMC/ST in his career
Messi has also played right wing, left wing and up top. And he's also played a few games in CM playing the Iniesta role at times this season.
 

IDFD

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#31
I don't really get why Pogba is coming in for such a lashing. I mean this whole "he's a £90M player and so he should fit in a two man midfield" is just utter nonsense.
He can play in a two man midfield. And he's been just as woeful at times in a 3 man midfield. The problem with Pogba is that it's when he can be bothered.
 

Edgy1968

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#32
It's hard to say weather that is true or not. Simply because so much rubbish is spoken and said about United everyday by people not even close to the club, then people start to believe whats written in a paper or said by a pundit rather then seeing whats in front of them at times. I'll give you examples; the players celebrating after the City win, both with each other and with the fans. Or Jose doing his post match interview for the BBC after the Liverpool match and Pogba coming over during it to give him a hug to celebrate that victory. These things dont suggest to me that there's any extra friction behind the scenes, and both these events happened recently. It seems they all want the same things and are pulling the way way.

It's easy to make a storm in a teacup about a manager dropping under performing players and the press love to do that at our club. Especially if they are English, especially if they are young and even more if they cost alot of money. Notice not one has mentioned anything about John Stones lack of game time ahead of the world cup but Rashford is under the cosh everyday. The fact is under performing players get dropped week in week out at team in the world. After that result at the weekend players will and should be dropped for tomorrow night. Its completely understandable but the press will stir it up because its Manchester United.

I look at those United players dealing with the pressure of playing for our club and churning out a lackluster performance like that on Sunday and I would hope in that dressing room everyone is unhappy. Everyone is mad. Everyone is frustrated. Both the manager and the players should be angry at themselves and each other. That is normal friction and a normal emotion to have at a top club. So i'm glad they all seem annoyed this week and it looks bad because i'm hoping they smash Bournemouth and Spurs and make up for that on Sunday. Being unhappy in a moment doesn't necessarily mean there is a greater problem behind the scene like the press keep telling us.
That's a great post! Totally agree with everything there very well said.

Agree with one of the lads re Sanchez, him coming in a lot of us were debating at the time if he would play 10, or right wing as surely he would not have bought a 29 year old to take the place of two of the top young talents in European football in Martial and Rashford, I actually find it astounding that arguably our two most potent, pacey, skillful attackers are getting zero game time due to Sanchez coming in who, bar City second half has been woeful, it's like he is playing on top of Pogba and it just seems to have totally unbalanced our play.

The difference to how we were from August to late October when Pogba first got injured to how we play now, it's like watching two totally different clubs. Back then the Pogba Matic partnership was being lauded, one holding one breaking forward, Martial/Rashford having freedom, causing carnage, fighting for that spot it was good healthy competition, Lukaku on fire, since Pogba has come back after Xmas it's like Jose has just put the reins on them, and Sanchez has just thrown a spanner in the works.

I worry for next season with how Spurs and Liverpool might strengthen.
 

IDFD

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#33
This whole Sanchez has thrown a spanner in the works malarkey is also rubbish. Yes he hasn't done great but since joining he's not been as bad as people are making out. He needs to find his scoring boots but he's definitely settling.

It's 2 goals 5 assist and 3 motm performances in 13 games. Not bad for a guy whose been supposedly awful. But to put that in to perspective Martial who everyone is saying how great he was prior to Alexis turning up and Alexis ruined the balance had 6 goals 3 assist and 0 motm appearances in the 20 games prior to the Yeovil game (Sanchez debut)

Rashford in the 20 games prior to Sanchez turning up. 2 goals 2 assist 1 motm performance. In his 10 appearances since Sanchez turned up it's 3 goals 2 assist and 1 motm performance.

Neither Rashford or Martial were in the scintilating form people say they were in when it comes to goals and assist in the 20 games before Sanchez came. It's a myth. And Rashford stats have gone up since his arrival. Though it would have been a struggle for them to go down. They both played well August to October. After that things dried up for them.
 

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#34
And it's up to those two to make themselves undroppable. Did Scholes throw his toys out the pram and kick off when we signed Veron because he was annoyed we'd signed a world class player that may take his place? No of course he didn't.
 

maxt7

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#35
That's a great post! Totally agree with everything there very well said.
Nice one Edgy, good to have you back on here.

Just gets to me how everyday someones unhappy at Old Trafford or there's always a negative story, even when we win. There's no substance in hardly anything that these journalists write.

Pogba's brother's, best friend's, neighours, girlfriend, ex sister-in-law, used to work with someone who knew someone,who once spoke to someone,who cooked Pogba dinner once and they said 'Paul is leaving'. Quick stick it in the paper, source close to Pogba says his leaving.
 
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