The attacking play

Sideshow Bob

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#1
The attacking play is very poor; it's disjointed and the team resorted to hoofball again. This United doesn't create enough chances. It's not good enough.
 

jsp

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#2
Moyes broke it, LVG couldn’t fix it and so far Mourinho has faced the same issues.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#3
The issues with the attacking play has little to do with Moyes and Van Gaal. Mourinho has been the manager for over two years. The likes of Bielsa at Leeds and Sarri at Chelsea have had an immediate impact on the style of play.
 
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#4
The issues with the attacking play has little to do with Moyes and Van Gaal. Mourinho has been the manager for over two years. The likes of Bielsa at Leeds and Sarri at Chelsea have had an immediate impact on the style of play.
Couldn't agree more. Thing is... Jose was never going to be the right man to fix the attack. And in this day and age its all about attacking play. Look at the top teams around Europe. Real, Barca, Juve to an extent, City, PSG, Liverpool. They are all attack first teams because that's how the game is right now.
 

jsp

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#5
The issues with the attacking play has little to do with Moyes and Van Gaal. Mourinho has been the manager for over two years. The likes of Bielsa at Leeds and Sarri at Chelsea have had an immediate impact on the style of play.
Well he inherited almost no attack when he joined.

Rooney was finished
Martial & Rashford were teenagers
Depay had thrown the towel in
Mata never really fit his style hence why he sold him

He/the club have bought in a few players to solve this Zlatan, Mhiki, Lukaku, Sanchez but 2 have already left for different reason.

I don’t think our attacking players are good enough to win the league but I also don’t think they’re being coached properly I still don’t see a plan for when we have the ball and how we want to score a goal. The coaches you mention are guys who work relentlessly about what to do when their teams have the ball I don’t think our team does that.

Sarri really hasn’t changed that attack much it was a functioning attack that relies on the brilliance of Hazard he’s on his game currently so he’s making them look great. We hoped Sanchez would be that guy as he’s got the quality but he just isn’t performing anything like Hazard is currently.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#6
Well he inherited almost no attack when he joined.

Rooney was finished
Martial & Rashford were teenagers
Depay had thrown the towel in
Mata never really fit his style hence why he sold him

He/the club have bought in a few players to solve this Zlatan, Mhiki, Lukaku, Sanchez but 2 have already left for different reason.
The quality of football in Mourinho's first season was the best we've seen during his tenure.

Sarri really hasn’t changed that attack much it was a functioning attack that relies on the brilliance of Hazard he’s on his game currently so he’s making them look great. We hoped Sanchez would be that guy as he’s got the quality but he just isn’t performing anything like Hazard is currently.
Sarri has had an immediate impact on Chelsea. Chelsea look like a team with a plan. Carragher analysed Sarri's impact on MNF: Chelsea’s change of style under Maurizio Sarri examined
 
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#7
We just lack flair in the attacking third, I was envious of Wolves attacking talent yesterday and there was no way we should be envious of them.

Sanchez was supposed to bring that spark to our attacking play which he hasn’t, like Di Maria was supposed to. We simply don’t have enough players to unlock defences. Lukaku is just a battering ram who does score but isn’t a creator. Lingard is full of endeavour but nothing more. Mata and Sanchez are not the players they once were. Then when you look at City and Liverpool who are full of options, you can see why we are struggling. We are nowhere near good enough to win the league right now.

Our midfield is coming together you would say but our defence and attack? Nope.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#8
Couldn't agree more. Thing is... Jose was never going to be the right man to fix the attack. And in this day and age its all about attacking play. Look at the top teams around Europe. Real, Barca, Juve to an extent, City, PSG, Liverpool. They are all attack first teams because that's how the game is right now.

Yes. I've been saying this for a while now that football has moved on and Jose hasn't but the "keep the faith with Jose , he's a proven winner" brigade just don't get it or seem to want to listen.

What's it going to take to wear down their misplaced faith? It's time to go with a manager for the future with his best years ahead of him not managers with past glories. On yesterdays game I would be really excited to see Santo have a go. If he can produce that with Wolves resources then........?
 

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#9
Do you take more glee from United dropping points or winning now days?
 

jsp

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#12
The quality of football in Mourinho's first season was the best we've seen during his tenure.

Sarri has had an immediate impact on Chelsea. Chelsea look like a team with a plan. Carragher analysed Sarri's impact on MNF: Chelsea’s change of style under Maurizio Sarri examined
I dunno the first 2 months of last season was the best football we’ve seen but it didn’t last long the first season was very frustrating as we just couldn’t score in the league.

They do have a style that’s obvious but Mourinho doesn’t do style he changes to suit his opponent Sarri will always play that way which makes him predictable and it might be why his sides entertain but don’t always win because it’s style over results with him. I still say it’s easy to make your style look good when you have a guy like Hazard producing magic every week when he’s delivering consistently Chelsea are an absolute force when he isn’t a managers style gets found out.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#13
An honest one. It was a genuine question based on your posts.
The problem with your question is that its based on an assumption that I experience "glee" so it's a leading question based on two limited alternatives. If I asked you "when did you stop beating your wife up 2014 or 2015?" you might rightly say " I can't answer that one because I don't beat my wife (or don't have one , or I have a husband...etc)"

However , I'l answer honestly based on the idea you are asking in good faith.

It's not glee , far from it, its actually confusion , frustration and it's quite agonising. It's not an easy thing. I find myself almost wanting United to play badly and lose sometimes in the hope that Jose will just go. But then I feel guilty about this and feel inner conflict. I don't like seeing United being derided by Liverpool fans. I celebrate goals but its kind of muted because I believe that it prolongs his stay.

To be honest I haven't really properly worked out how to feel. I feel sorry for the team and I want us to do well but I end up finding that we are only ever one game away from another disappointing performance. I dream of seeing the same set of players explode into life under a different manager , but I hate seeing the long , drawn out process that we will have to go through before he gets sacked. Defeats are like how a dentists drill feels. It's not a gleeful thing at all but I'm glad its happening because it's for the best if I don't want to end up with an absyss.

I would prefer that United fans and the chairman would see sense and do the inevitable , but unfortunately I'm left with the ugly , hard to palate option of not hating defeats as much as I used to because at least they will hasten a possible new dawn. The only real exception to this will be the Liverpool / City matches of course. Honest enough for you?
 

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#14
I'm sick to death of thinking about the many, many issues and what is wrong with us. I've decided that it's 50% the players and 50% Jose's fault and a change of manager is now needed at the end of the season as this situation can'not go on. We have a board appearing not to back Jose, a manger who doesn't seem to be able to get us to play and a star player in conflict with the manager. It's time for a change.
 

jsp

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#15
Worth pointing out that in the 4 games prior to Wolves there really was nothing wrong with the attack plenty of chances created vs Spurs, Watford, Burnley & Young Boys so no need to go over board for a bad performance vs Wolves who are a tough side to play against.

There's a lot wrong currently this side is miles from winning the league that's just a sad reality and it's every department that is failing yeah the club is still bringing in fortunes but stick a Utd badge on anything and someone will buy it the brand is that strong these days.

One week it's the defence, the next it's the midfield then it's the attack, then it's the manager, then it's Woodward the only conclusion really is that the whole thing is shagged and needs major sorting out by people who know what they're doing. They either back Mourinho with the power to make the big decisions or sack him but sacking him changes nothing really as the next guy will face the same problems he might be able to get more of a tune out of the attacking players but will that expose the defence?

I'm just gutted that 6 games into the season it's another year where the leagues gone and at best we are hoping for a domestic cup we hoped building on last seasons point total was a realistic target but so far it looks like we will struggle to get back to that number again this year.
 

Mr C

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#16
I am of the opinion what we need, as drastic as it is, is new owners. And until then the club will be broken.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#17
I'm sick to death of thinking about the many, many issues and what is wrong with us. I've decided that it's 50% the players and 50% Jose's fault and a change of manager is now needed at the end of the season as this situation can'not go on. We have a board appearing not to back Jose, a manger who doesn't seem to be able to get us to play and a star player in conflict with the manager. It's time for a change.

Hurray! Someone's taken the red pill and escaped the Matrix! Reality isn't pretty once you've pulled out all those tubes but at least it's authentic and if we all do it then we have a fighting chance of moving on.

Hi RW , my name's Morpheus - if your eyes hurt its because you've never used them before.

For those who are still sadly locked in the Matrix and maybe believe some magical title challenge will emerge I have one message for you. Ask yourself this. How many Liverpool , City , Chelsea and Arsenal fans do you think are hoping Jose stays? I bet my mortgage that there's a lot more of them want him to stay than United fans want him to stay.

Why might this be? Its because rivals fans look at things without any sentimentalism or emotional investment. All they want is United to fail. They have no agenda than that. It's like us wanting Wenger to hang around as long as possible , because we knew with him there that Arsenal were too flaky and couldn't mount a serious challenge. Many Arsenal fans couldn't see what we could see because of "loyalty" or " in Wenger we trust" or other such deluded thinking. United fans are no exception to this.

I guarantee you that the average Liverpool fan would not feel good if we replaced Jose. They can see we are going nowhere with him and they just love this status quo. It clears the space for them to mount a title challenge or two with us out of the way. That thought alone should sicken us and shake our reality cage.


"You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. Nothing more."

Red pill and blue pill - Wikipedia
 

Mr C

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#18
itsallinthemind

if you think changing the manager for the 3rd time in 5 years is going to solve anything you are mistaken. We'll be changing manager again in two years if we carry on doing that.

The problem is much deeper than that.

You're talking about one of the most successful managers in football, who has won everything in multiple leagues. He won the prem not so long ago. You may not like his football, but can't doubt his pedigree.

You are way to negative for me to take you serioudly, nothing has any strength to it other than you want Jose out. What are your proposals to move the club forward. Please don't just say new manager, we have tried that and we have one of the best in the business at the club.

Surely you must see the problems run deeper than that.

I don't think for one minute think Pogba wa having a go at Jose, but non the less, the club should be stopping him from talking. It just doesn't happen at clubs that are run properly.

The best news I could hear is the club has been sold, or at least Woodward has been sacked.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#19
I would agree that our problems are not just managerial , but right now it's the first thing to at least try and put right. The problems were there with LVG too so it's not just Jose. That has to be conceded.

The board and chairmen make two or three main decisions - who to hire , when to fire and how much money to give someone and when. I'm not sure what happened with Moyes , haven't quite figured that one out yet , but with LVG and Jose there was plenty of money to be fair. I think the main problem is short term v long term thinking. We've gone for two so called "proven" managers with, I think, their best years behind them not ahead of them. That suggests some kind of panic and short term thinking. The players that have been bought seem the same , we are looking for a ready made package rather than looking further ahead and being patient. I agree with you hiring and firing just for it's own sake is not a good strategy. If you think you have the right man you stick by him thick and thin. The problem is that if you think you don't have the right man - you have to be decisive.

I think the problem has been that the club hasn't accepted that there was always going to be a 2-3 year slump post Fergie and what we needed to do was accept this and build something for further down the line. We needed to re-build more slowly and more solidly. Jose was never going to be that kind of manager but you do have a point. The problems were there before he arrived. We've got to stop hiring managers who are known for playing a style of football that's just not the United way - it's never going to work. We've got to stop hiring managers who seem to more about past glories and less about hope for the future.

The reason why I want a new manager is that then there's at least some chance that he can get the team trying to play a more attacking football. It could also take 10 years for things to change further up top.
 

Red Warrior

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#20
itsallinthemind

If you think changing the manager for the 3rd time in 5 years is going to solve anything you are mistaken. We'll be changing manager again in two years if we carry on doing that.

The problem is much deeper than that.

You're talking about one of the most successful managers in football, who has won everything in multiple leagues. He won the prem not so long ago. You may not like his football, but can't doubt his pedigree.

The best news I could hear is the club has been sold, or at least Woodward has been sacked.
Don't you think 3 years is enough time to make a change? Obviously Jose has time to turn this around this season but I just can't see it, can you? If you want crap football, a fight to be top 4 every season and getting knocked out the UCL at the group or first knockout stage then you guys carry on singing Jose's song but for me something has to change. It's very clear that the Glazers won't sell up (why would they with an ATM giving out free money as a business), the players will change and evolve so to me Jose is the fall guy. Just look at Chelsea after he was sacked second time, soon as he went they were transformed back into a winning team!

I'm not anti Jose like others are, I just think there needs to be some change. BUT if we have a look at the end of the season and there isn't anyone out there better I'd rather stick than twist. The new man HAS to fit Utd, not the other way round.
 

Mr C

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#21
The owners are taking way too much money out of the club, a club with our revenue should be able to bully all the other clubs into getting whatever players we want.
Not enough money, or business thinking is put into the football side of things. If I were 100% honest I would want a different manager, but that was when we hired Jose. I see no benefit in changing him now, it will just continue the downward spiral. If Jose can't win trophies here then i doubt there are many that can. Pep struggled first season even after years of investment by the club getting the players to suit him. They still needed more so they bought more. Liverpool were really struggling, Klopp out rumours, so they invested. It doesn't matter if we have spent money, we needed more and didn't buy. Probably why Spurs are struggling too.

I am a lifelong united fan, 40+ years, and I have high expectations for Liverpool to come crashing down to earth.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#22
You are way to negative for me to take you serioudly, nothing has any strength to it other than you want Jose out
Let's clear this up. If we are talking about the attacking play and style then I have to talk about wanting Jose to go. It's not negativity either. I'm a very positive person and also very positive in my ideas around how my team should play football. I don't believe we should be going 1-0 up at home and then be trying to shut up shop or cautiously play to the scoreboard. I don't think we should be allowing teams time and space at OT and allowing them to easily play it around whilst at the same time they hound us to death while we have ball. I think teams should react to us not then other way round , especially when it's lesser opponents at home. I want my team to show movement , intensity, be on the front foot and intimidating wherever possible , not showing the other team too much respect. I want teams to visit OT and feel intimidated. I also don't believe in criticising players in public or managers not taking responsibility or moaning or game playing with the media using long stupid lists to pretend he's being victimised. He's not being victimised. His teams play awful , disjointed football quite a lot of the time and his only get out of jail card is to get results - and that isn't happening.

Nothing negative about that surely? Where my problem comes is that I end up sounding negative because I'm responding to Joses's negativity. I hate it and that makes me sound negative when actually it's not me that's negative , it's those that support Jose's negativity. If they were as positive as me then they would sound negative like me. It's an oil and water thing. They just don't mix. One recoils against the other. That's why Pogba and Jose can't get it together. Oil and water. Pogba's not being negative , he's just saying that maybe the players are starting to get a bit frustrated with playing so cautiously.

To be clear about this. I consider those who support Jose and his football right now to be way, way more negative than me.
 

Mr C

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#23
I don't think many fans are happy with the football, the point is, throwing the manager out is not going to fix it, we have tried that.

As a club, we have no plan for the football side of things. His football isn't great, but if Jose cannot win trophies here then plenty of others will struggle.

The whole point of supporting a football club is to support it, not just slag the manager off. And for me, with the playing staff he has, Jose is doing ok. Yes I wish we could be more attacking, but we just don't have the personnel. We can't release all the players forward because without protection the back 4 leak goals. We should have invested.
 

IDFD

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#24
To be honest I haven't really properly worked out how to feel. I feel sorry for the team and I want us to do well but I end up finding that we are only ever one game away from another disappointing performance. I dream of seeing the same set of players explode into life under a different manager , but I hate seeing the long , drawn out process that we will have to go through before he gets sacked. Defeats are like how a dentists drill feels. It's not a gleeful thing at all but I'm glad its happening because it's for the best if I don't want to end up with an absyss.

I would prefer that United fans and the chairman would see sense and do the inevitable , but unfortunately I'm left with the ugly , hard to palate option of not hating defeats as much as I used to because at least they will hasten a possible new dawn. The only real exception to this will be the Liverpool / City matches of course. Honest enough for you?
I do get where you're coming from. It's just frustrating for me seeing us drop points and then seeing the anti Mourinho brigade getting all excited. I can see both sides of the coin. The frustration with our football when we play like we did on Saturday. The strange choices in subs (Did Mata really play down the left i'm sure to me he was) and the fact after 6 games it's clear we wont be winning the league this season. Add to that the fact the two main clubs that are looking like winning at the moment are our two biggest rivals and it's compelling for Mourinho sacked argument to be made.

But for me we've done the hiring and firing of managers over the last 5 seasons it's got us nowhere. Mourinho has improved the side and the board should have backed him. He highlighted the dificincies. If things are to be believed he wants Alderwierald Perisic and Arnaotuvic. CB RW and back up for Lukaku. Now once the club has given him a new contract in January they should have backed him in the summer. I can't blame Mourinho for Woodwards failings.
 

jsp

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#25
I don't think you can pin it on one person when we lose same as when we win.

Woodward
Mourinho
Pogba

Seem to be the 3 who take the most criticism and that little love triangle needs to be sorted out because the fighting between parties helps no one.

Reality is the club don't need to win to be succesful in the eyes of our owners/shareholders they need profits and just challenging for honours is enough from that point of view 4th place and round of 16 for CL keeps the money rolling in as far as the owners are concerned. The club freed up a lot of money post Fergie to allow for a rebuild but it's been spent poorly and without much planning we assumed big names would solve all of our problems post Moyes. Van Gaal, Mourinho, Di Maria, Falcao, Pogba, Zlatan, Lukaku, Sanchez etc have all came in and made little difference because their is no plan it's just constant papering over cracks.

As @IDFD said they gave Mourinho the contract and then didn't seem to want to let him execute his plan in the summer why wasn't that plan part of those contract negotiations if the club knew they couldn't back him to the level he wanted then why give him the new deal?

The attacking football has been a problem for 5 years for me it's a result of flip flopping between playing styles under 3 cautious managers. The squad has been built in the imagine of 3 very different managers rather than in the image of the club until the club decide what they want it's identity to be and sign players/appoint managers to fit that little will change.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#26
I'm not anti Jose like others are, I just think there needs to be some change. BUT if we have a look at the end of the season and there isn't anyone out there better I'd rather stick than twist. The new man HAS to fit Utd, not the other way round.
Oh no. You are not fully out of the Matrix quite yet. Rather stick than twist? My God man , he's got to go , period , end of. There's any number of managers I would take a punt on before keeping Jose. The red pill has been taken and your tubes are out but you haven't quite slide down the waste pipe into the water yet. No messing about , he's got to go asap , the sooner we get on with a different future the better. Don't even consider sticking. It's too late turn back now. It's not about hating the guy , it's just he's pants for us. I don't hate my neighbours dog but I most certainly object when it $%^S all over my drive.

Yours

Morpheus (aka Itsallinthemind)
 

Itsallinthemind

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#27
I don't think many fans are happy with the football, the point is, throwing the manager out is not going to fix it, we have tried that.
No we haven't. We got rid of one cautious manager with past glories behind him and replaced him with another cautious manager with past glories behind him. We just repeated the same mistake twice.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#28
The quality of football was awful again. There is very little off the ball movement, which is a coaching issue.

Enough is enough, for me. I hope that I'm wrong but I just don't see Mourinho turning things around.
 
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#29
We have been outplayed by Leicester, Wolves and Derby at OT this season so far. Yes we beat Leicester but they still were much the better side. It’s really unacceptable and the performances are not getting any better. Our attacking players look like they’ve just rocked up on the first day of school and they don’t know their teammates. There is no chemistry at all.

I’m not one to overreact and Jose will not get sacked tomorrow but he is living on borrowed time. He has to get more out of these players but some don’t seem to give a crap anymore. They just amble about and make silly elementary errors because they are not focused or motivated from what I can see. Say what you want about Fellaini but at least he seems to give a crap about us and tries to the very end. We have so much dross in our squad it’s frightening.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#30
We have been outplayed by Leicester, Wolves and Derby at OT this season so far.
It makes you wonder how many more lesser teams giving us football lessons it will take before we all figure out that it's just not happening and it probably never will under this guy. Teams are starting to come to OT and not feel nervous. They are almost relishing it.

How many more games like this will it take. 3 seasons and he still can't create the chemistry needed.
 

IDFD

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#31
How in the hell were we outplayed by Wolves? We had 65% possession, more shots, more corners, more passes, the territorial advantage a higher pass completion rate and in the final third. A higher dribble percentage rate. In fact there isn't a single statistical measure that says we were out played by Wolves. We were the better side and I know people love revisionism on this forum but fcol they hit us on the counter when we were going for a second. You lot are the same god damn people that got fed up with us sitting on a 1-0 lead.
 

IDFD

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#32
It makes you wonder how many more lesser teams giving us football lessons it will take before we all figure out that it's just not happening and it probably never will under this guy. Teams are starting to come to OT and not feel nervous. They are almost relishing it.

How many more games like this will it take. 3 seasons and he still can't create the chemistry needed.
Teams started coming to Old Trafford and not fearing us under Moyes. If you've only just caught up on that one it'd be a surprise. Moyes ruined that in about 3 months. In fact last season was our best home season we've had in many years. We also had our longest unbeaten run in the clubs history at home under Mourinho.
 

boothstownred

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#33
How in the hell were we outplayed by Wolves? We had 65% possession, more shots, more corners, more passes, the territorial advantage a higher pass completion rate and in the final third. A higher dribble percentage rate. In fact there isn't a single statistical measure that says we were out played by Wolves. We were the better side and I know people love revisionism on this forum but fcol they hit us on the counter when we were going for a second. You lot are the same god damn people that got fed up with us sitting on a 1-0 lead.
I am sorry mate but although the stats might say we were the better team the eyes didn't. Their passing and movement was much slicker than ours.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#34
United look a poorly coached team. Lampard has Derby passing from the back, pressing from the front and demonstrated good ball retention in the matter of months. Mourinho is making the squad look worse than it is. A different manager would have the team performing to a higher level.
 
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