Racism in Today's Multi Cultural Society

Shoot

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It's not a subject that can be ignored, or should be ignored, so lets have a thread on it.
We need to start tentatively by briefly introducing ourselves and answering the questions as per below. The rest I am sure will come naturally as the thread progresses. I will start it off in a follow up post.

1. Who are you? what is your ethnic origin and do you now live in a country in which you were not born or did not grow up in
2. Have you ever been subjected to racial abuse? and if so was regular and/or sustained.
3. Have you yourself ever been guilty of racism? and if so did this involve subjecting another(s) to racist abuse?
4. How do you currently view racism in the country where you currently live or country from where you originate?
 

Shoot

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1. I left my home town of Glasgow when I was 18 and the UK was under a Maggie Thatcher Government.
I left mainly in search of employment, seeing no future other than one of crime and punishment under that Government. Indeed her side kick Tebbit had actually made the statement for folk to get on their bikes to find employment.
Thatcher clearly had no time for Scotland or Wales and had clear determination to destroy all industry within these country's with no plan on how this would be replaced. This in itself could have been determined as racist had it not been the case that she clearly had the same distain for the northern regions of England. She clearly considered the UK to be the South East of England.

2. I have been subjected to racial abuse on many occasions from English people in England. Never regular or sustained and certainly not enough to trouble me too much other than finding it, on a couple of occasions very disappointing. I suspect this behaviour would have a greater impact on people who are not from the UK and more so if it is down to skin colour.

3. I have never, or certainly do not recall ever subjecting anyone to racial abuse. I do however admit to having had racist thoughts over the years. These thoughts have become less and less thankfully through education and the consciousness of the British people to help stamp racism out.

4. I am proud to be firstly Scottish and British. When i visit Scotland it always strikes me that it is a welcoming and tolerant country. Indeed in this day in age there are many Asian's who are proud to call themselves Scottish. When I left these would have only been kids if they were born at all. I was only accustomed to their father's who ran the local shops and from my memory were treated respectfully.
I think the United Kingdom is at the forefront of fighting racism and it is good to be one of those people. Most people who I know in England think and act likewise.
 

jsp

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1. Who are you? what is your ethnic origin and do you now live in a country in which you were not born or did not grow up in
I'm a white British (English) male have never lived outside of England.

2. Have you ever been subjected to racial abuse? and if so was regular and/or sustained.
No have regularly mixed with other racial groups in sports/schools/work environments but fair to say I've always been part of the ethnic majority in those situations.

3. Have you yourself ever been guilty of racism? and if so did this involve subjecting another(s) to racist abuse?
Probably have to answer yes in my younger years saying words or things as "banter" not really understanding the meanings and never with the intention of hurting the person they were said to just part of "in jokes" with mates that in the wider context could easily by considered racist. As I've got older I've become much more sensitive to it and what this stuff means and don't really engage with that sort of banter even when it's going on around me which from working in construction is pretty common stuff.

4. How do you currently view racism in the country where you currently live or country from where you originate?
I don't think it's got any worse than it was 20/30 years ago huge strides have been made on it but I think those who believe that their race is the more superior have certainly become less afraid of being caught saying it in public. We now have a lot of second or third generations from the immigrants who came in the 70's/80's who would class themselves as British but plenty of those who never accepted their parents/grandparents when they arrived still don't accept their kids. I don't think social media has been a good thing for this progress as there are people on all sides who like to bring race into everything and stoke fires trying to divide people rather than unite people.

It's still there and I'd say in the last decade it's probably been on the rise a recession, followed by austerity government and the rise of social media has probably stoked some of that but I still think it's a small minority the issue is they're a very loud minority who get a lot of attention for what they do. I do think a lot of white working class frustration can be easily transferred into racism because these people just want someone to blame for something.
 

jsp

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Scary times over in America another black man killed at the hands of the police resulting in demonstrations on the street.

Some of the stuff has made me question my own position on race and how I view racism probably having to accept that I hadn't considered the idea of white privilege when forming my view on racism and how it exists in the modern world.
 

Mr C

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As a white person I would never know.

I think in the US it's still a major issue, a white woman called the police on a black man because he asked her to put her dog on a lead a day before this happened.

it's a social problem for sure, many people of colour live in poor area's with not the best schools, so they don't get the education and then don't get the jobs. It's a complete circle that needs breaking.

Here in France, teachers don't go and pick schools where to work. They work for the state and get told what schools to go to hopefully meaning the schools in run down areas still get good teachers. But you still get real run down suberbs.

White people see the impact of these area's and lump all black people together, think they are all trouble makers, a bit like Muslums are often treated, so look at them differently when employing. Unless of course they behave and speak like a white person.

For me it's all about education, the poor kids in the run down area's and all the privelidged people.

But i'll never know, I would have to black to really feel what it's like.

It's disgusting anyway.

That crime in the US was a disgrace, the other officers should have been arrested. Most people are protesting peacefully, but all we white people see on the news is black people are looting. The real crime is being lost.

At least they have Donald Trump to bring the country together!
 

Mr C

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facebook viral

Twice a day, I walk my dog Ace around my neighborhood with one, or both, of my girls. I know that doesn’t seem noteworthy, but here’s something that I must admit:
I would be scared to death to take these walks without my girls and my dog. In fact, in the four years living in my house, I have never taken a walk around my neighborhood alone (and probably never will).
Sure, some of you may read that and think that I’m being melodramatic or that I’m “playing the race card” (I still have no clue what the hell means), but this is my reality.
When I’m walking down the street holding my young daughter’s hand and walking my sweet fluffy dog, I’m just a loving dad and pet owner taking a break from the joylessness of crisis homeschooling.
But without them by my side, almost instantly, I morph into a threat in the eyes of some white folks. Instead of being a loving dad to two little girls, unfortunately, all that some people can see is a 6’2” athletically-built black man in a cloth mask who is walking around in a place where he doesn’t belong (even though, I’m still the same guy who just wants to take a walk through his neighborhood). It’s equal parts exhausting and depressing to feel like I can’t walk around outside alone, for fear of being targeted.
If you’re surprised by this, don’t be. We live in a world where there is a sizable amount of people who actually believe that racism isn’t a thing, and that White Privilege is a made-up fantasy to be politically-correct. Yes, even despite George Floyd, Christian Cooper, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor (and countless other examples before them, and many to come afterward), some people still don’t seem to get it.
So, let me share some common sense points:
1) Having white privilege doesn’t mean that your life isn’t difficult, it simply means that your skin color isn’t one of the things contributing to your life difficulties. Case in point, if it never crossed your mind that you could have the cops called on you (or worse, killed) for simply bird watching then know that is a privilege that many black/brown people (myself included) don’t currently enjoy.
2) Responding to “Black Lives Matter” by saying “All Lives Matter” is insensitive, tone-deaf and dumb. All lives can’t matter until black lives matter.
3) Racism is very real, and please don’t delude yourself into thinking it’s limited to the fringes of the hardcore MAGA crowd. As Amy Cooper proved, it’s just as prevalent in liberal America as it is anywhere else.
4) While racism is real, reverse-racism is not. Please don’t use that term, ever.
5) In order for racism to get better, white allies are absolutely critical. If you’re white and you’ve read this far, hopefully you care enough to be one of those allies. Please continue to speak up (despite some of your friends and family rolling their eyes at you), because your voices matter to PoC now more than ever. Special shoutouts to my friends
(and anyone else who I missed) for doing it so well.
6) And if you’re white, and you’re still choosing to stay silent about this, then I honestly don’t know what to say. If these atrocities won’t get you to speak up, then honestly, what will? Also, it’s worth asking, why be my friend? If you aren’t willing to take a stand against actions that could get me hurt or killed, it’s hard to believe that you ever cared about me in the first place.
As for me, I’ll continue to walk these streets holding my 8 year-old daughter’s hand, in hopes that she’ll continue to keep her daddy safe from harm.
I know that sounds backward, but that’s the world that we’re living in these days.

VIRAL EDIT: Whoa, so this post blew up. I am deeply touched by all of your kind words, and also, for your willingness to step up as allies. The comments on this post have only strengthened my faith in humanity, and for that, I am very grateful. We have a lot of work to do, and I’m ready to stand at your side to do it .
 

O-Dog

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There was another example similar to Mr C's posted on Facebook where a black guy had the cops called on him in a gas station because his presence was making an elderly white woman nervous.

These incidents appear commonplace. But an even more damming indication of the level of ingrained racism is the number of white people eager to dismiss them as not important, made up or the result of some fault of the victim.
 

Mr C

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yes, and the retort "all lives matter" to the slogan "black lives matter" needs to be shot down immediately.
 

IDFD

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Whilst it shouldn't be the retort it should be a phrase that all lives matter because it isn't just black people dying at the hands of American police.

Numbers shot dead by the police.

2017
White: 457
Black: 223
Hispanic: 179
Other: 44
Unknown: 84

2018:
White: 399
Black: 209
Hispanic: 148
Other: 39
Unknown: 204

2019:
White: 370
Black: 235
Hispanic: 158
Other: 36
Unknown: 202

2020 (Up until 31st March)
White: 42
Black: 31
Hispanic: 13
Other: 3
Unknown: 139

As much as racism is an issue there is just a massive underlying issue with their policing in general. That's 3000 people in 3 years shot to death by their police. 3 a day. Where is the mass outrage at the 1270 white men shot and killed by the police in the last 3 years or the ? It's all lives that should matter not just the ones we pick and choose and it certainly isn't racist to suggest you should be fighting to stop all of these people dying at the hands of the police.

I've been fairly confused at the sudden level of outrage over this case. It should be there but then it should have been there every single day for the past decade. And it should also be directed at South Africa too and many other places where police killings are common day thing. No matter the race someones life shouldn't be ended by a police officer on a regular basis.
 

Mr C

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no one is saying all lives don't matter.

Saying black lives matter is not saying all others don't.

I iagine if you wrote down % of black population shot to % of white population shot it would change those stats considerably. About 12% of the US is black but they are way over 50% of the police shootings.
 

IDFD

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I'd agree with doing it in percentages if my point was blacks aren't more likely to be targeted. It wasn't. My point is that you should be highlighting all lives matter and that police brutality cases should be highlighted regardless of the victim being black white or purple.

Tell me you were aware that over a 1,200 white men had died at the hands of police in the last 3 years? These cases deserve media attention and for people to be aware of them also.

I've not seen the statistics for all shootings but a quick look at the numbers above says it's close to 25% of shootings involve black people. I'm not saying it isn't wrong. I'm saying firstly protest about all death not just the one's that suit you and secondly the black lives matter campaign last time it got huge ended up going in the opposite direction to all lives matter. It's not a good idea to create segregation based on colour if you're trying to do it for positive or negative reasons and it went very wrong last time with this same campaign and slogan.

Don’t get me wrong I fully appreciate the message behind it. I just remember where all this went a couple of years back. And instead of creating divide it should be about creating unity.

Also disagree with the looting of shops to try and make any point.
 

Mr C

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of course there should the same amount of investigation into every crime. The point is, saying black lives matter is not saying white lives don't. It's just bringing to the front that a high % of the police killings are against black people. It's not saying they don't kill whites too. Some Police officers may feel they have no choice, so not all of those we can say were unjustified either.

The point is, a police man has been filmed, crushing a black mans windpipe for seven minutes while other officers looked on. And one person has been charged with 3rd degree murder. Not murder.

Now for people to come out with the #black lives matter, is not saying white lives don't. And to retort with white lives matter too, I think is a little inappropriate and can give the impression of white privilage. Oh yes, a black person got murdered, but what about us, we get murdered too. That hashtag is not saying they aren't, it's saying a high percentage are against the black community.

We'll never know, because we aren't black and we will never know how it feels.
 

IDFD

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If you can’t see that the black lives matter slogan creates divide then I’m not sure how to explain it to you but you just need to look back at it’s previous uses and the problems there were in society. To you or many others it may not. But we’ve been here before. We’ve worked through it. It ended up with numerous violent scenes. Both as young youths felt pushed out of a movement they believed in and as if they didn’t matter and as young blacks felt a sense of purpose to rally around and it united them against others. The movement didn’t work last time and that’s why the slogan became all lives matter because of the violence scenes previously.

I have no problem with the meaning and slogan of black lives matter. I just think you need to be aware of the sort of divide the slogans create.

and saying all lives matter isn’t degrading of Black people. It’s saying that Muslim that gets racially abused on a bus deserves standing with too. Or that Chinese person getting abuse deserves standing with too. And we should unite as one human race instead of creating more divide.

The #MeToo campaign is a much stronger one for bringing people together and against the established elite.
 

Mr C

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I guess it depnds on how you think. I see it as a slogan saying black lives matter. It's not saying anything else, so why would I read other things into it.

I don't look a cancer fund slogan and think they don't care about alzheimer's
 

IDFD

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And you're talking about a society that's on the brink of explosion. There are a lot of black people that disagree with the black lives matter slogan and choose to use the All Lives Matter slogan instead.

Richard Sherman "I stand by what I said that All Lives Matter and that we are human beings."

I understand both sides of the argument and I think it's important to be able to.
 

Mr C

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I have no problem with either slogan, my point is when someone uses the slogan black lives matter, it shouldn't be shot down with the all lives matter slogan. The first slogan is not saying the second one does not or should not exist.

President Obama spoke to the debate between Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter. Obama said, "I think that the reason that the organizers used the phrase Black Lives Matter was not because they were suggesting that no one else's lives matter ... rather what they were suggesting was there is a specific problem that is happening in the African American community that's not happening in other communities." He also said "that is a legitimate issue that we've got to address."
 

jsp

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The video of the police chief in Flint, Michigan was incredible a white police chief confronted the protesters told all his officers to lay down the weapons and talked to them asked them what they wanted and marched with them. I imagine plenty of cops are pretty sick of having to take to the streets in this way defending the indefensible acts of a colleague.

It's as much about the behaviour of the police after the event than it is during it the guy was suspended and fired but only after it blew up into a huge news story is he facing further charges. It sends a message that this sort of stuff is ok when it clearly isn't.

No point focusing on the name of it the message is what matters and it's this sh*t has to stop right now.
 

Mr C

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Exactly, any complaints over the # is just drawing away from the real problems. It's watering it down.
 

Shoot

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If black lives matter, why is there such a high level of black on black murders in and around London and Birmingham.
 

IDFD

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That’s not just the case in England. In America if a black man is murdered 88% of the time the killer is black. Black on Black crime is something that gets conveniently brushed under the carpet.

Of course this isn’t me saying black lives don’t matter it’s me pointing out that for the majority of black crime race isn’t an issue because it’s generally black on black crime and this current incident should be treated for what is is. A police brutality crime. Which happens another 75% of the time without it being a black man involved.


And yeah I imagine police officers have had enough and that the vast majority of them are decent people but with a 1000 deaths a year being on their hands they need to be more vocal about exposing their colleagues.
 

Mr C

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This is not to do with black on black crime, which is a completely different social problem.

This is do with a group of white police officers, murdering a black man, and it took thousands of people to get onto the streets to protest for one of them to get 3rd murder charge.
 

jsp

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Because these murders are largely a result of gangs competing for the illegal drug trade which is largely funded by white people who like getting coked up on the weekend in the UK. That's a trade where you can't turn to the police if someone steals your stuff so the only way to protect it is to defend it yourself the people dying here have made a decision to join a very violent game where the risk is high but so is the reward.

That's a whole other story where we've been waging a "war on drugs" for a 100 years that we have absolutely no chance of winning and by just having a war on drugs we probably do more harm than good. Pretty much all the research suggests that criminalising people involved with drugs is making things worse not better and countries who've totally switched their way of dealing with it are getting massive success in terms of getting people off drugs and also seeing huge reductions in the type of crime that comes with it.
 

IDFD

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This is not to do with black on black crime, which is a completely different social problem.

This is do with a group of white police officers, murdering a black man, and it took thousands of people to get onto the streets to protest for one of them to get 3rd murder charge.
Ignoring that some of the police officers were black? That’s the sort of thing I mean about pushing an agenda to suit.

It’s terrible that this guy has been murdered. But it should be terrible regardless of his colour. And you say it is but I bet name me one of the 1000 white men murdered at the hands of the police. You can’t? But I bet you can name 5 at least of the lesser number of black people killed by the police at the same time.

These murders by the police should be an issue to you at all time’s and not just when it suits. If it’s down to the police killing someone then that’s the issue regardless of their colour. So why as a nation aren’t we behaving like that? Why when there are 3 police murders a day everyday for 3 yrs are we picking certain ones we care about?

Your issue shouldn’t be a group of officers killing a black man. It should be the group of officers killing a man. The damning facts are this is an everyday occurance and usually the victim is white. (As the numbers posted earlier proved) however some how it’s almost become racist to simply state the facts.
 

Mr C

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The black lives matter slogan is not saying they don't all matter.

What happens is people complain about the # and it all gets diluted, like now. Why do do we need to say, no, that's not fair white lives matter too. The slogan isn't saying they dont.

The problem being discussed is not about police killing people, it's about the disproportionate amount of blacks being killed. Maybe when that comes down and it doesn't look like out and out racism, the matter of police brutality in general can be looked at. But it shouldn't mean the racism should't be adressed just because white people get killed too. Why can't there be a black lives matter # when yet another black man is murdered by the police in such a savage way.

So already, like on here, we are no longer discussing the rascist murder, we are discussing it happens to white people too.

You and I will never know what it's like to be black and have racism. I'm sure if there was a black member on here they could argue the point much better than this white person.

The NY times has done an interesting video you can watch on youtube.

I'm not sure of the race on any of the officers, and for me to guess would again be racist, certainly none of them seem like they are black.

And if you want to bring those figures up again, 50+% of the killings are black, that's 12% of the population. It's disproportionate. On the 2019 figures, roughly 1:638000 whites and 1: 165000 blacks are killed.

I see Rashford, Pogba and the whole Liverpool team have spoken out today, as well as Michael Jordan, Lewis Hamilton
 

IDFD

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A warning to not follow the link if you don’t want to see horrendous behaviour and the possible death of a man defending his shop at the hands of the BLM protesters.

As I was saying above I cannot get behind a violent movement which is what BLM is. As I said earlier the most dangerous person to a black man on the streets is another black man. That’s what the statistics and facts say. To defend the black lives matter movement is to continue to encourage this violent behaviour which I cannot condone.

Hence for me All Lives Matter. Including the life of a shop owner trying to protect his store.

Just infuriates me that we’ve seen this before. We know it ends in violence and to continue to encourage it is ridiculous. The way to highlight murderous behaviour isn’t with violence.

One of the police officers was definitely black. He’s been abused for not ‘defending a brother’

and you keep saying 50% of the killings are black. It’s not close to that. It’s a lot closer to 25%

I agree with the concept of black lives matter. I fundamentally and wholly disagree with the divide it causes and their violent actions and cannot condone the riotous behaviour.
 

Shoot

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This is not to do with black on black crime, which is a completely different social problem.

This is do with a group of white police officers, murdering a black man, and it took thousands of people to get onto the streets to protest for one of them to get 3rd murder charge.
I think it is relevant. The level of violence and crime among them has an effect on the perception of them by others. Many of the younger generation or/and lesser educated are intentionally menacing and harbour racism within themselves.
These issues also need to be addressed in order to address the wider racism issue.
 

Mr C

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more than half the amount of white people killed are black is what I mean by 50% when only 12% of the population is black and. The ratio's I put up say it all really.

And of course you will find looters and all sort of people tagging onto the protests. Like every protest ever. It doesn't mean a disproportionate amount of black people don't die in police custody. Like all protests, the main focus point should not be ignored because there are idiots around. I won't watch that video becasue I am sqeamish. But of course the culprits also need bringing to justice. No-one should be rioting.

I'm not saying any more, I'm white. We need a black person to tell us what it's really like.
 

IDFD

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I don’t need a black man to tell me that I don’t condone violence from any side and that fundamentally the black lives matter movement is violent at heart.

There are previous black activist that have distanced themselves from the BML movement because of the violence that has come with it over the past 5 years.

All Lives Matter. You may choose not to watch but the video shows a shop owner being beaten for defending his store. Hooded youths of varying ethnicities beating him for no reason other than he isn’t joining their barbaric behaviour so he’s not one of them. As I said earlier it’s a movement that created divide.
 

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O-Dog

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Nobody denies bad things happen to all types of people but this is about racism.

Racism is evil, so let's deal with it.

Everytime someone responds to a discussion of racism with 'yeah, but bad things happen to white people too' , it deflects from the discussion of racism.

Why do people not want to discuss racism; help stop racism? It is a specific curse upon our world that needs to be dealt with, so why bury it under a chorus of 'yeah, but....'.
 

IDFD

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I’m all up for talking about racism. What I’m not up for is the pretence that goes with it. The fact I can’t give an opinion without it meaning I’m hiding. I think it’s wrong a black man was killed. I think it’s equally wrong that a white man was killed but this is swept under the carpet and ignored. I think it’s wrong a man was killed at the end of the day. And the fact that so many white men are killed by American police leads to me believe they’ve got the killing mentality not the killing back men mentality.

I think it’s wrong a black man was killed. I think it’s also wrong that BLM are out there setting fire to people’s livelihoods and beating the shit out of people.

Im not going to watch them destroy people’s lives and stand by and agree with it. Just because I’m white and should keep quiet about how it’s quite frankly wrong how they’re behaving.

The facts are very simply. Policeman shouldn’t kill anyone. BLM shouldn’t kill anyone or loot stores are beat them anymore than me or you should. Reacting with violence doesn’t make it okay.

A black man is much more likely to be killed by a black man than anyone else. This is the biggest problem African Americans have. Solve that 86% of all cases and then you’ll be getting seriously somewhere. Those people murdered were also black in those cases so why don’t those lives matter?

Why can’t I criticise the black lives matter campaign if I believe the cause is correct but the actions aren’t?

My issue isn’t racism it’s people hiding behind racism in order to not have an opinion.
 

jsp

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Out of interest what % of violent crime committed by a white person is against another white person are those statistics radically different to black on black crime in America?

Changing the arguments gets us nowhere it doesn’t solve the problem it’s not black vs white it’s everyone vs racists.

It’s also about holding the police to account especially in America where they are heavily armed and licensed to use lethal force.
 

Shoot

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Out of interest what % of violent crime committed by a white person is against another white person are those statistics radically different to black on black crime in America?

Changing the arguments gets us nowhere it doesn’t solve the problem it’s not black vs white it’s everyone vs racists.

It’s also about holding the police to account especially in America where they are heavily armed and licensed to use lethal force.
You opened this debate today talking about "white privilege", that tends to suggest it is black and white. And in my opinion, it largely is. White privilege has also been mentioned by others in the thread.
Whilst racism takes many forms it is in it's worst form when skin colour is involved and in the case of George Floyd it is probably skin colour that cost him his life.
The outrage on this case is just. We watched a man plead for his life, we watched a man murdered regardless of his pleading. It is truly awful and at least one of those officers should be charged with first degree murder, and given the autopsy report possibly 2 or 3 of them.
Then there is that silly cow who called the cops because a black guy asked her to put her dog on a lead, a disgraceful act played out in video. Her firm rightly sacked her.
These are cases of white people acting because of the colour of their victims skin and when black people talk about black lives matter and white priviledge, how can you say it is not black v white?
America is presently a fecking disgrace and given recent events there I sometimes wish we didn't get reports from there. It's truly depressing. I really believed the world had taken huge steps forward with race relations but that country and it's clown of a President is taking us all backwards.
We used to be happy enough to be considered to have a special relationship with America. Now? surely not!
 

Shoot

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Out of interest what % of violent crime committed by a white person is against another white person are those statistics radically different to black on black crime in America?

Changing the arguments gets us nowhere it doesn’t solve the problem it’s not black vs white it’s everyone vs racists.

It’s also about holding the police to account especially in America where they are heavily armed and licensed to use lethal force.
My earlier reference was about black on black crime in Britain. They are killing each other for fun by knife and by gun. Kids some of them. Shocking.
 

jsp

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
11,858
My earlier reference was about black on black crime in Britain. They are killing each other for fun by knife and by gun. Kids some of them. Shocking.
Not sure it's really for fun they're doing it over drugs in the majority of cases. You obviously get some cases that are over a personal matter but there's also white people going nuts and killing people too over drugs or personal matters. The rise in violent crime is directly linked in my opinion to the rise of drugs use in the UK, people competing for control in this market use violence and the rise of drug use especially cocaine in the UK over the last 10/20 years has fuelled this.

The reason I asked for a bit more on statistics is I've seen a lot of numbers about white and black deaths in America so I was interested to see if the black on black pattern is similar to the white on white pattern. My guess is it probably is as in America these communities tend not to mix with each other.
 

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