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Progression and identity

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Red Warrior, Feb 13, 2018.

  1. Red Warrior

    Red Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Watching Utd at times this season hasn't actually been a lot more entertaining than when LVG was in charge. Without doubt we we're very poor all over the pitch and we made some terrible player purchases during his era and I for one thought he should have gone 6 months prior to when he did.

    I'm gonna stick my head out on the block and repeat part of that last statement:
    Without doubt we we're very poor all over the pitch NOW

    So how have we progressed?
    Well we now have a much more formidable spine, some world class players, on paper a very good team.
    So why are we playing so badly and almost LVG like?

    Our Utd 'identity' seems to have way gone. No wingers, no attacking play. Pep has City playing with their own identity as does Poch at Spurs. I felt like we have no identity even though JM has been here 18 months. But it dawned on me, perhaps our identity is to play tight and grind out results with no entertainment value at all.

    At the minute Jose seems like a one trick pony, with no tactic nous to sort things out. I just cant understand why this guy, with all his experience and trophies, is actually doing what LVG did, namely nothing. We are just banging away with the same formation, playing the same dour football. The fans are now mega frustrated, everybody calling for the 433 to get the best out of Pogba but nothing changes. If the football continues like this the fans will be calling for Jose head by the end of the season.

    I'm happy to keep Jose for 1 more season, let him buy the players he thinks he needs this summer and see how we go but surely the football needs to improve.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    if anyone knows how to stop Pep and this dominance it’s Jose. The man who ended his Barcelona run of dominance. If Pogba is this world class player we keep saying he is then surely he can do a job in central midfield at the moment you feel he’s part of the problem. We bought him to play centre mid and we are finding out in that position he isn’t the player we thought he was. Jose bought him to be an imposing box to box midfielder and dominate games on his own.

    Perhaps going 4-3-3 is the way but I’m not convinced. It’s actually a negative move not an attacking one. The way we’d play that formation we’d have 3 players attacking and everyone else in defensive roles.
     
  3. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    As for the United way and our identity. Well that involves two traditional wingers and they don’t really exist in football anymore. I’d love to see us revert to a 4-4-2 in one game and just have it. Have some fun.
     
  4. Red Warrior

    Red Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking the same about Pogba to be fair, he's meant to be world class but he cant seem to adapt to what were asking him to do.
     
  5. the nuts named eric

    the nuts named eric Well-Known Member

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    Did no one see him for France when asked to play that role?
     
  6. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    Last time I watched France would have been the Euros. And they played a 4-3-3

    Sissoko Matuidi Pogba

    Sissoko was actually their stand out player.
     
  7. Mr C

    Mr C Well-Known Member

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    Jose still does not have his ideal team, he hasn't got his John Terry or his cover to properly release Pogba like Lampard, and Pogba needs to adapt in to that role.

    Next season I expect a good improvement. Jose had 18 months, city have been buying Peps team for about 3 years.
     
  8. Edgy1968

    Edgy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Mate I was going on about this last night to a mate, could not agree more, I think our identity has completely disappeared, not just on the pitch but as a club, my thoughts on it are:

    On the pitch we are becoming like the English version of Real Madrid, there seems to be no process when buying players, back in the Fergie days he would research a targets family, background, mentality, desire, attitude, all of which Fergie deemed just as important as how good a player he was, that's why the likes of Ronny Johnson, Ole Gunner, Bruce, Palli, Schmeichel, Irwin, Parker, Keane, Cole, Yorke, Sheringham, Evra, Ferdinand, Vida and many more were such good signings as they were extensively researched. Nowadays, it seems like Woodward just goes "he's a top name, buy him, he's a big player, buy him" plus it feels to me that we have no qualms signing players who don't really want to be here, the likes of Di Maria and dare I say even Sanchez who we all know wanted to go to City and lets be honest ha snot come for anything other than a massive pay day. This would never have happened under Fergie or David Gill, also as Red Warrior mentioned earlier, we can't let world class talent go by the wayside but I just worry as to how much they actually care, players use to come in and want to learn about the history, the principles, the identity, what it means to play at United, at the minute I don't get that many players truly care that much, as long as their Instagram is up to date, hair is nicely viewed, their wages are paid in time and their handshakes are on song, the rest is secondary.

    Jose is baffling me at the minute, agree with the boys above that he has gone from being at the top of his field when it comes to tactics, nullifying opposition, winning the big games, I mean this bloke never lost a big game in about 6 years it was ridiculous, he even masterminded taking down arguably the greatest football team of all time. But he just seems clueless at the minute as to what to do, how to improve, how to get the best out of players, he doesn't seem to know what players he prefers to play in certain positions, what tactics to use, as the lads say there is no way of playing, no identity, we just turn up and hope for some individual brilliance, even our defensive work is cracked over by De Gea but teams are getting through time and time again, there are no relationships on the pitch, no fluidity, no pressing, hardly a game plan.

    Regarding the club, and I totally blame the club on this but it just feels so different going to games etc. these days. The last local pub was shut last season, you go to the two or three around the ground and its just tourists having no clue or interest in singing/the songs etc its all about getting a good selfie and hitting the megastore, at the Liverpool game last season and two guys walked into the pub with half and half scarfs on, with the liver bird on show in a United pub from a supposed United fan, dear god! It is getting considerably worse and a hell of a lot of mates who have had season tickets for years and years have now given up on going to OT altogether and concentrate on away days, the whole match day atmosphere now feels like your going for a tour around a museum on holiday rather than going to the football, the club have pushed for this but it doesn't feel like the club it did when I was growing up.

    Lastly, the stewarding at OT is a major problem and is playing a huge hindrance on the atmosphere, me and my dad were at the Burnley game on Boxing Day, sat in tier 2 J stand, top seats so just the stand behind us, we nearly got kicked out for standing up, there was no one behind us, I argued and they told us to "stay seated and be quiet" I could hardly believe my ears, at the football behind the goal, sit down and shut up, unbelievable. Speaking to a few of the J Stand fanzine guys they reckon its the biggest problem we have, you can't stand, you can barely sing, my worry is that 10 years down the line, 95% of it will be tourists as the working man fan is being pushed further and further away from the club and the amount that have given up on it is scary. We have been to a few Salford games recently to go back to watch some "proper football with proper fans" and I tell you what, its brilliant!

    Anyway boys, my two cents on our long gone identity.
     
  9. Mr C

    Mr C Well-Known Member

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    Edgy, that isn't just united, that is football. The stadium atmosphere is gone because they need to generate money to buy players to please the fans. More money means it pushes out the working class or the normal person. The stewards are just following health and safety, they let you stand, for some unexplained reason the stand collapses, they end up in jail.

    The players, however much you like to think otherwise, have always come to club for the money, yes the trophies too but the money. They have never come for teh love of the club. Keane, Rio, Rooneyand probably others we don't know about have held the club to ransom over money.

    The football doesn't exist at this level any more, that's Salford City.

    It's a shame but that's it.

    I don't Jose has lost it, 2 trophies last year, 2nd in the league and still in the CL and FA cup. He doesn't have the players he can rely on, he likes a strong defence and we have Jones and Smalling, with Valencia and Young. You compare that to his Chelsea defence. Pogba needs to adapt, he can still be that flair player he wants to be, but he needs to the hard work like Lampard. At the moment Pogba is all about Pogba.com

    Football as we know is gone, yes City are looking great, paying nice football, they have probably had a couple of billion invested in that club.
     
  10. Edgy1968

    Edgy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah mate not saying its only United, course its throughout, I speak to Liverpool, Arsenal fans its all the same everywhere, which is fine but as you say the working class fan is going ot get bored of it, the cost to go to games is incredible and if your being threatened for standing for singing then people will stop paying the money, I know I sure as hell will.

    When I say players are going for the money, I mean back under Fergie, yes the players were paid well of course, but it wasn't the only reason they were joining the club, it was a bonus, at the minute, were paying incredible money to players to persuade them to join us, then were surprised when they don't perform and don't seem to give a sh*t.

    I will go to a few games a season but gone are the days where I'm going home and away to games and spending massive amounts of money travelling round Europe, if the club don't care about the fans, why should we spend our money?
     
  11. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    The harsh reality is the club doesn’t want people like you going to games. You’ll be in the pub before the game you’ll get to the game 2 mins before kick off and then back to the pub after. They want their crowd in the megastore and spending money in the stadium. Everyday fans aren’t a priority the club care for
     
  12. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    I’m not condoning it btw it’s shit. But we’d all rather be at a lower league ground in the cup having a proper sing song than at Old Trafford sitting in silence watching United vs Stoke
     
  13. Edgy1968

    Edgy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Could not agree more mate, absolute nail on the bloody head
     
  14. Edgy1968

    Edgy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Big time mate, the tourists would s**t their pants on a United away day lol
     
  15. Mr C

    Mr C Well-Known Member

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    It's a double edge sword, I bet you love the fact, no matter how many titles city win, they'll never be as big as united generating those revenues.

    I don't love football as much as I did in the 70's and 80's. I thought it was age, I was lucky that after all average days in my youth/teens we had the fergie years that timed perfectly with Sky and Pubs in my 20's + I thought life with kids just pushed football to the back. But maybe it's not, maybe it's the game.

    Being from London my visits to old trafford were limited, but you could always get tickets for the London games back then. I don't think even that is so easy any more.

    It's not the same any more, I haven't been to O.T. since 2010. When I lived in the UK I used to take the kids to the local team. Me and 4 other fella's :)
     
  16. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    Getting tickets for the games is still generally quite easy. Only one i've really had problems with was the Tottenham away I fancied but the club made it so tickets had to be collected with ID from Wembley so needed to find someone willing to come to Wembley and collect the ticket but not go. Which was never going to happen!

    I usually get all my tickets regardless of club from the same group of people. Getting Arsenal is ridiculously easy. My girlfriend decided she fancied the Arsenal vs Palace game made a phone call and had tickets sorted within 15 minutes. I've actually been to the Emirates a few too many times for my liking this season!
     
  17. Red Warrior

    Red Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Your dead right. Football is not the same. I watched a bit of Gazza the other day and realised there are no flair players left anymore, its all too technical. I'm beginning to get bored watching Utd and that is something I thought I would never say. Games are so tight usually, poorer teams make it so boring by just defending for 90 mins and the likes of Utd labouring to break teams down. Its painful to watch.
     
  18. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    It's definitely been more of a chore than a joy watching United at times in the last 3 years. And the damning thing of all is that I love watching football. I'll watch as much as I can get my eyes on. City/Spurs/Liverpool you watch them and enjoy it. But United you just sit there getting angry and frustrated. The amount of shouting I must have done at the TV on Sunday was ridiculous. It's infuriating.

    Thier games pass by in a blink of an eye. United games seem to take an age (until we go behind and then the clock starts running in fast motion)
     
  19. Edgy1968

    Edgy1968 Well-Known Member

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    Haha yeah agree with all of the above, I think its just the whole modern football is wearing me down, find myself arguing with other fans more about bloody revenues, shirt sales, how much we have spent on players and wages and I do enough of that in work, it is quite scary how much the banter these days is about things off the pitch rather than on it, its the way its going, I have a few mates who are Liverpool fans who are feeling the exact same as us regarding atmosphere and people who go, that new stand apparently is tourist central.

    Way of the world guys, Mr C to be honest buddy I am more proud of our history than I am how much revenue we make, that side of it for me is whats making me tire of United, things like cup/European games you get a text saying "payment has been taken" about 20 seconds after the draw etc, infuriates me, money money money.

    One of my best mates is a massive Barnet fan, sometimes I'm jealous as hell thinking it must just be class, he loves his local footy while I'm arguing with fans on twitter about how much debt we have zzzzzzz
     
  20. jsp

    jsp Well-Known Member

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    At the Euro they played 4-2-3-1

    Pogba Kante

    Sissoko Griezmann Payet

    Giroud

    They tried Pogba as the number 10 in a game and it didn't really work by the end this is how they were playing they started with Griezmann out wide then he moved to the 10.
     
  21. IDFD

    IDFD Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you're correct in the formation as I said on a different post the 4-3-3 4-2-3-1 can easily be reverted between in games with the correct players.

    However Kante didn't start the knockout games was dropped by that point.
     
  22. jsp

    jsp Well-Known Member

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    I'll answer this in two parts.

    Progression

    To me it's obvious there's been progression from LVG to Mourinho the team is still the same defensively but going forward we are so much more dangerous especially at home watching LVG teams vs the bottom half lot was painful we passed and passed and went nowhere we barely had a shot at goal now the shots are raining in again and the home record is back to how it should look. Old Trafford is back to being a bit of a fortress for us only City have come and deserved to take anything from us this season. Burnley got away with a draw as did Southampton but on the day I think Utd did enough to beat both.

    Away form is still hit and miss vs the bottom sides we can grind out results which we also did under LVG but we have off days which can cost us we give up cheap goals and we aren't always clinical.

    Big Games ~ I think at home we've maintained our good record under both managers although the performances under LVG in these games were maybe a bit more impressive but I also think to an extent Mourinho has had stronger rivals to deal with City/Liverpool/Spurs are all stronger and Chelsea are just Chelsea with their season on season off policy. Away from home it's basically the same apart from Juanfield I don't recall us beating City/Chelsea/Spurs away from home under LVG we snuck a very standard 2-1 at the Emirates where they battered us and we did them on the break twice once year.

    Europe ~ LVG had one season in the CL and made a complete pigs ear of it and we were well beaten over 2 legs by Liverpool in the Europa, Mourinho won the Europa in a year where no big teams were really in it not that you can really batter him with that and so far in the CL we've been good at home but poor away but we should make the 1/4 finals so that has to be progress.

    Identity

    Well that's always a tough one as it can be a bit cliche the West Ham way and all that nonsense. I don't think Utd's identity by 2010 was anything like it probably was in the 80's which was a side who played beautiful attacking football but always ballsed it up in the league but could win cups because on their day could beat anyone. Sounds a lot like the current Arsenal if you ask me.

    What it became under Fergie was a well oiled winning machine that was way more than the sum of it's parts at times we had a brilliant side that could match anyone in Europe 99-01 and 07-09 where for me the glory years where Utd should've added more European Cups to the 2 they won but even in those years in between the team always competed. They kept everyone on their toes because if you let your standard slip after winning a title Utd would come and take it back we did it to great Arsenal, Chelsea & City sides only Mourinho's Chelsea managed to defend their title at a time when our squad was probably at it's weakest ever under Fergie but we responded with 3 in a row.

    Utd were not always a flair team in the 25 years of Fergie they were often a functional side who knew how to get the job done and save the legs for a more important game but they were a ruthless winning machine that could go up the gears when they needed to and they were fearless. To use an analogy when guns were fired Utd players ran towards the bullets not away from them they would respond by trying to take out the enemy rather than run from them think of all those comebacks.

    The most important thing was Utd always played as a team currently this is the number 1 issue I see in our squad they aren't a team they don't have each others back and I wouldn't be surprised if the dressing room had cliques in it that muskateer spirit that a Fergie team always had isn't quite there right now probably because the squad has got bloated which means quite a few guys aren't playing regularly which creates tension. Fergie managed that well as he had senior guys who didn't expect to play every game who could probably keep that sort of stuff in check but now we've got guys who probably feel they should be playing who aren't and I don't see that as healthy.
     
  23. jsp

    jsp Well-Known Member

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    France changed a hell of a lot during the Euro's because players like Payet & Sissoko came in and did well so he kept moving bits around pretty sure both Pogba & Griezmann were dropped in the 2nd group game for Payet & Martial who'd both come on in the 1st game and changed it. Martial then got subbed at HT in that game and I don't think featured again until the final where he came on for the last 10 minutes.

    Pogba played in a 2 man midfield in the knockout rounds though and I don't recall him having a real stand out game in the tournament he seemed happy to take more of a back seat epsecially when Griezmann went central and started running the games. Makes you wonder if he had a number 10 in front of him who he felt could run the game would he be happier sitting back? Does he burst forward because he's trying to be superman for the team all the time?
     

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