Post Match Discussion: Manchester United vs Everton

[SuperRash]

Started great, played poor in between and smashed them in the last 5 minutes.

Job done. Discuss.

 

[jsp]

Looked tired and slow today against a fairly poor Everton team.

Blew them away when the time came.

 

[SuperRash]

De Gea was a hero today, made a couple of very good saves. Of course if Rooney finished better it could have been different.

Overall the result was great and it's nice to see us blow teams away in the final ten minutes. But we need to wake up in the middle periods because not all teams will be as profligate in front of goal like Everton.

 

[Sideshow Bob]

The scoreline flattered United, but who cares, right?

 

[O-Dog]

Too slow for most of the game. Mkhi needs to pull his socks up and Rashford needs a rest. Matic did well.

 

[maxt7]

After beating West Ham and Swansea 4 nil I was saying people can't really moan. But to be honest we didn't deserve a 4 nil win today. I think the way Everton played especially for large parts of the second half they looked more likely to get a point then lose.

Don't feel like we can just sweep that under the carpet because there's larger concerns despite the score line. Miki again for me just plays the ball too late. He hesitates and delays the release of a pass which kills an opportunity. Rom should have scored and wasn't in the second half at all till the final 10 mins. So for me, people that say 'well he scored again and Miki got a goal' are just glossing over the match and the problems.

Without Pogbas drive and willingness to take the ball on, we are lacking tempo and direction. So let's all hope that 12 week rumour isn't true.

All that said playing definitely our worst so far this season and winning 4 nil is a good sign. But there's problems that need addressing. I agree with the comments above that a better finishing side would have punished us today. De Gea just doing De Gea things again. Mans the best keeper in the world for me.

 

[O-Dog]

Yup, Mo will not be happy with that, i'd guess. Expect him to take the players to task and tell them to sharpen up.

 

[Red Warrior]

The scoreline flattered United, but who cares, right?

I think we should care. 4-0 was a very flattering scoreline and it is masking some obvious issues. We started so well, best I have seen us play for a long time but Everton soon worked us out and played very well for a long period of time. I thought a goal would come for them. Ok, we finished the game off in style and probably last year would have been 1-1 so in a way we really cant grumble but we're gonna get shown up by Citeh or another of the top 6 teams if they turn up and play against us. I could easily see a 4-0 reverse on us if we don't sort out back 4 out soon.

 

[jsp]

I felt we looked slow especially in the attacking midfield positions the passing wasn't quick enough and to many touches at times and I don't think anyone in the attacking positions was on their game, plus I think we fell into the trap of just chipping the ball into the box which is what the Everton defence wanted us to do rather than testing them by running at them. That said Lukaku really should make it 2-0 and kill the game off with that one vs one chance and also the one he tried to chest rather than header but De Gea made a few saves to get us out of trouble not great saves but good saves.

The good thing is though when these teams are coming and trying to frustrate they are being put away even if late goals make the score line more flattering as soon as they go for the goal by making a few subs Utd are putting them away.

Still not sure how we will cope in big games where we aren't in total control but it's good to see the goals returning to Old Trafford

 

[IDFD]

Last season we managed 54 goals? We are almost a third of the way to that total after just 5 games. I don't think anyone would say we deserved a 4-0 victory yesterday but at least we killed the game in the end. How many times last season did we dominate games but not kill them off.

It could be a stressful season if that's the pattern though. Twice this season now we've had a 1-0 lead until late on before finally making the game appear comfortable.

I actually don't think any of the big 6 other than City look impressive. It was a good weekend for us if you look at last seasons top 7. 5 of them dropped points this weekend. We are now 3 clear of Chelsea. 5 clear of Tottenham and Liverpool and 6 clear of Arsenal.

 

[Red Warrior]

I actually thought yesterday we were stuck in 3rd gear. Maybe it's mental cos it was Everton. I am really looking forward to our harder tests ahead hoping we will step up and hit top gear. Time will tell.

As you say Citeh are the only team who look really impressive at the minute but that is just at the minute. I'm sure Chelsea will spark soon as will Spurs and possibly Liverpool and Arsenal. Lets just hope when they do we are already sparking.

 

[jsp]

I just think it was tough Everton were packed in with a back 3 they gave us space on the wings and our wide players didn't really exploit it Young/Valencia didn't really provide any quality crosses when they came forward we don't really play a right winger and on the left Keane did a good job defending against Rashford who had a bit of an off day. The crosses that did go in were often from deep and they had 3 centre backs plus Schniederlin to deal with them they actually dealt with the threat in the air very well.

Obviously not having Pogba does slow down our passing in midfield but it felt like the early goal made us too comfortable we didn't have that killer instinct that maybe City/Liverpool do when they smell blood they can take a game away from teams in the first 15 minutes whereas Utd tend to relax when they get a goal. I think Chelsea will just carry on doing what they're doing but need to sort the discipline out but Spurs look like they've got the same issue as last season once the European games kick in their league form drops.

As for Everton for a team that's spent what they have you have to feel a bit dissapointed with what they offered and I think Koeman got his tactics wrong from the start by not having any pace up top and with his subs, Rooney I thought was their best player and it was strange to see him come off and Siggurdson stay on with 10 minutes to go.

 

[Red Warrior]

I thought Rooney was poor. He gave the ball away so much and his finishing was also poor. Glad to see him putting in those same performances in a blue shirt and not a red one now.

 

[jsp]

I thought Rooney was poor. He gave the ball away so much and his finishing was also poor. Glad to see him putting in those same performances in a blue shirt and not a red one now.

I thought he did pretty well considering he was totally isolated from the rest of his team so while he did lose the ball at times he was often on his own vs 2 centre backs and also had midfielders screening in front of him.

Poor finishing seems harsh he got 1 real chance which was saved but it was on his weaker foot and he had to adjust quickly having gone to ground to win the tackle on Bailly his only other shot I think was one that came to him on the edge of the box which went just wide. I thought watching live he missed another one vs one but it turns out that it was Sigurdsson who took the shot on the one DDG blocked with his body.

I felt given that he wasn't offered any help going forward by his team mates he did well.

 

[gav81]

Rooney almost cut through our defence single handedly...

 

[SuperRash]

More like bumbled his way through with some luck.

Obviously a few years back I think Rooney would have punished us massively. But thankfully he didn't.

 

[Red Warrior]

To be fair to him he battled enough to be in with a shot at goal. A top striker would have put that the other side of De Gea and that is why he now plays at Everton and not United.

 

[jsp]

To be fair to him he battled enough to be in with a shot at goal. A top striker would have put that the other side of De Gea and that is why he now plays at Everton and not United.

So does Lukaku get a pass for that one vs one he put wide of the target?

That chance wasn't easy he had to get back on his feet and get a shot off with his weaker foot almost in one movement but it's hard to get annoyed with a striker who wastes a chance that he's created by himself.

 

[Red Warrior]

Lukaku isn't a world class striker yet and I doubt he'd have scored that one either.

 

[jsp]

World Class strikers will miss chances like that it happens to all of them but the truely world class ones don't let it bother them once they miss they're on to the next one.

I think it's getting hard to argue against Lukaku being world class he's one of the best strikers in the world but like Kane he needs to really establish his status by scoring regularly in the Champions League.

 

[maxt7]

His probably in that bracket just behind World Class because the career his had hasn't allowed him to compete with the best regularly. Ronaldo, Suarez, Benzema, Lewandowski and Ibra are what i'd call world class strikers because they've done it against the best teams and players in the world. That said i'd have him up on someone like Harry Kane because I think he will have a bigger impact on the European stage then Kane. United will give him the platform to allow him to break into the bracket with the other names and from how his started his life here, he looks like he will take it with both hands. Its not about misses here and there like JSP says, but he will have to became a better finisher because the harder game create fewer chances.

 

[jsp]

I mean his record speaks for itself playing in fairly average sides in a top league like the premier league his record is 226 games 111 goals and he's only 24 and his national team record is 60 games 24 goals so at all levels so far he's been a 1 in 2 striker which is what a striker should be doing.

The thing with world class is there's no dictionary definition as to what it means for me a world class player is a player who is in the top 10 in the world in his position, now it's probably to early to put Lukaku & Kane into that bracket but for the last 3 seasons along with Aguero they've been the best strikers in England. I'd say the others probably create more chances for themselves than Rom does Aguero with his quick feet and Kane with his long range shooting but I'd say Rom is probably the best finisher out of the 3 in the box he is lethal.

 

[maxt7]

There's a difference between being a brilliant premier league player and a World class striker though isn't there? His record in this league is fantastic no question. Cant knock that. But there's no doubt in my head that his biggest test of how good a player he is and can be, will be based on how he performs now his at a big team. A world class striker for me scores goals yes, but also drags his team out of holes and scores big goals when the chips are down. They turn up in the big matches against other world class players. Rom hasn't done that yet, despite his impressive record. I'm not saying his not going to be, i'm just saying he isn't world class in my opinion just yet.

 

[jsp]

There's a difference between being a brilliant premier league player and a World class striker though isn't there? His record in this league is fantastic no question. Cant knock that. But there's no doubt in my head that his biggest test of how good a player he is and can be, will be based on how he performs now his at a big team. A world class striker for me scores goals yes, but also drags his team out of holes and scores big goals when the chips are down. They turn up in the big matches against other world class players. Rom hasn't done that yet, despite his impressive record. I'm not saying his not going to be, i'm just saying he isn't world class in my opinion just yet.

Well I think you have to accept that the Prem is the 2nd best league in the world in terms of overall quality. La Liga has been the top league for the last 7-8 years which is the period when Rom has played so the fact he's scored consistently for fairly mid level teams for me carries some weight when judging a player plus his international record backs up that he can do it in a "big team"

Obviously the next level for him to prove himself on is playing in European tournaments now he's got his chance at a club playing in those competitions. Also, the important of his goals are relative to the club he's playing for he scored some great goals for Everton but was often criticised for his performances in big games especially away from home but I always defend his record in these games because Everton never got him the ball enough.

I think there are different types of strikers some have a nack of scoring in big matches like you say when titles are on the line the best example in recent years for me is Drogba but he never really looked bothered vs the weaker teams and his record against them wasn't that great others score loads vs weaker sides but go missing in big games you could argue the truely world class ones are the ones who do both. They not only fill their boots vs weaker teams but they also step up and deliver in the big moments.

You also have strikers who need chances created for them and others who create for themselves Rom can turn a bad ball into a good one by using his physical attributes but he's unlikely to use close control to get out of a tight space and get off a shot in the way Aguero can.

Obviously it comes down to what you determine world class to be as there is no clear definition but if I was asked to name the top 10 centre forwards (number 9's) in world football he'd be on my list bearing in mind you couldn't really include players like Messi/Neymar/Ronaldo in that list as they are more like wingers not saying he's top 5 but he'd just squeeze in.

 

[IDFD]

I can't call him or Kane world class strikers. I'd also more determine it as world class forwards rather than strikers. World class strikers drag their teams across the line when it matters. Lukaku and Kane both have the oppertunies to get themselves on to this list but they need to win trophies. This is the thing I don't like the hype around the Tottenham team for. Yes they're good to watch they're a good side but they aren't a great side when failing consistantly to win anything. Suarez Lewondowski Higuain Benzema Ronaldo these guys play through the middle and know how to win titles. They're great players but they also have the mental capacity not to be phased when it matters and we haven't seen that from Lukaku or Kane yet.

The miss the other day was a shocker though.

 

[jsp]

Strikers or Forward this is the point there's no definition but football have evolved we now have wide forward, centre forwards and number 10's some players can play across all those positions (Messi, Neymar, Ronaldo) but Lukaku is very much a centre forward so really it's only fair to compare him with similar players like Benzema, Saurez or Lewendowski who aren't going to play wide they always play up the middle.

This is where you get the problem can you judge a player individually in a team sport? This is a team sport so judging a player by what he's won is harsh because if he doesn't have a good team around him he won't win.

Maradona didn't win the world cup on his own nor did he win the league with Napoli on his own this is legend that has grown over time obvious he made a massive individual contribution to winning these titles but teams win titles not individuals especially in a sport like football where it's 11 vs 11.

For me if you're judging a striker or centre forward which is what Lukaku is every goal he scored for West Brom is worth double what he scored for Utd because unless you're in a top team you aren't getting lots of chances. A better judge of a striker is his conversion rate and Lukaku's is very high now this is probably because he doesn't take on to many difficult chances but he's very clinical in the box.

Higuain is an interesting one @IDFD this is a guy who's regularly frozen in big games for club and country but he is relentless when it comes to scoring vs weaker sides.

There's also an element of these guys being the next generation to step up Lukaku, Morata, Bellotti & Kane are the 20-25 year olds who need to take over as the elite level guys now most of the recognised big names are hitting 30 and will start to decline. You then have the next generation like Jesus, Mbappe & Rashford coming behind them.

 

[maxt7]

It's fair points all round to be fair and it's interesting to see how people rate different players.

I get what JSP is saying about Lukaku and how impressive it is that he scored that well at West Brom. And it was. But the flip side is he was the only real focal point of that side. Everything would be centred around him there. If he didn't play well more often then not the team wouldn't get a result. I think Steve Clarke was there at the time and there's no way he would have said to the lads forget about Rom let's play though Marc-Antoine Fortune. So he got all of the chances himself. While at United now there's threats all over the place with Rashford, Martial and co. So if Rom isn't on it we've got other match winners.

I don't think he needs to win any titles or personal accolades to became World Class. All this Ballon D'or thing annoys me because if there wasn't a team behind Messi and Ronaldo they wouldn't be the 'the best player in the World'. What he needs to do for me is performance when other world class players are playing. If he can mirror his Premier league form on a European stage,while continuing to do it domestically I'll stick him in the top bracket. But his gonna need time to do that. Right now his potentially the best striker under the age of 30 and leading the next gerneration of out and out strikers. But his got to do it on a Tuesday and a Wednesday night before his world class.