Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Sideshow Bob, Oct 21, 2017.
So, what do we make of that?
Mourinho citing poor attitude from the players for the loss, says the players have shown better attitudes in friendlies.
What is there to make of it other than if you play a team with more desire than you you’ll lose.
Mourinho was spot on in his assessment of the team yesterday. We have been very wasteful in possession and have given the ball away very cheaply in dangerous positions quite often in the last few games.
Feels like we’ve been coughing and spluttering and dragging ourselves over the line the last few performances before this. When you go in to games with the mindset of let’s defend first it’s hard just to turn up and be expansive and attacking, like we needed to yesterday. Just think we are giving sides too much respect of late.
Echoing what’s been said above there isn’t any creatively in the centre of the park. Add that to more then a few players having a bad game and that equals a loss against anyone. Got a hard run coming now, so we’ve got to go out and beat a big side to make up for this. Not defensively. Not nick a 1 nil. Beat them by attacking them and send a statement out. Otherwise any challenge for the title is a long way off.
Rule number 1 at Utd was always never come off the pitch thinking the opposition worked harder than you but today it was obvious. 3 away games in 7 days with a bit of a depleted squad maybe played a part but this team has looked poor in the last 3 games and yesterday our luck run out.
They simply wanted it more and Utd weren't prepared or able to match that intensity.
Utd players have to know that every team sees us coming as their cup final so you have to be up for it every week there are no excuses.
The bubble has burst. It’s been coming for games now. I dread to think what will happen against good teams. I’m beginning to think Jose isn’t the right man. Negativity and park the bus tactics!!
Don't know if the bubble has burst but injuries have hit our best player is out injured for who knows how long and the defensive reshuffle is happening every game as another body hits the floor.
Think reality is setting in with our attacking player Martial & Rashford have stepped it up this season Lukaku is doing well but Mhiki & Mata are playing poorly and you can see why Mourinho wanted a guy like Perisic in the summer as we need more attacking options.
Doesn't really matter how it happens but we have to beat Spurs next weekend.
Every team has injuries but we are good enough to go to Anfield and get a result. Spurs, albeit at home, smashed Liverpool last night while we parked the bus against them. Same as we did against most of the top 6 last season, excluding Chelsea.
Our squad is more than capable of beating Huddersfield with skeleton team. Lindelof is clearly a season at least away from being upto standard, why not put Carrick there instead?
Carrick is still injured i think. As is bailly, jones, rojo, fellaini, zlata, pogba. I don't want to use injuries as an excuse but when you get a lot of them in the same 2 positions it is difficult. Personally i would put blind in there before lindelof.
Don't even know where to start with that from Saturday, everything about it was horrendous, Martial looked like he was more interested in getting into stupid of the ball incidents than making anything attacking happen, Herrera again was terrible, what is going on with him!
Lindelof, don't even know what to say, he needs to improve 400% to be close to anything expected of a United CB, so clumsy its like this is his first season playing football!
Everything was just awful, the build up play was pedestrian, no pace, no threat, no pressing, no intent, no width, no creativity through the middle.
What I can't get my head around is why Martial and Rashford can't play in the same team, surely getting them pair in the same side should be number one priority, at least until Jose can sort out the problematic right wing situation because Mata/Lingard are just a no no for me on that side.
Is there any update on Jones injury yet?
Thought it was harsh Jose moaning about Herrera's interview afterwards. It's his job to get the players up for it and we can all agree their attitude on Saturday was terrible. Following a week where he was talking about PSG and contracts its about ironic for him to mention distractions.
There's no doubt for me it was a combination of tired minds of the better players making them under perform. And the weaker players in the squad just not being good enough to wear that shirt. We've got injuries, we've been on the road for a while, but it feels like every point this season is going to be so important and given the fixtures coming up thats a massive blow, but feels like it has been coming for a while. Pogba could playing with 1 leg and he'd still have made more of an impact then some of those on Saturday!
Yeah I thought Herrera was pretty honest in his interview, the players not being up for it is just horrendous, yeah don't think there is much to say on it now because as you say everyone agrees that it was just a horrendous performance, my worry is that we are slowly going back to how we attacked last season.
Thought we had nailed that with a bit more pace, strength and just blowing teams away but we seem to have fallen back into old habits, its games like Saturday that maybe Pereira would have made a difference, playing next to Matic and having that creative spark in CM unlike the rest who are all extremely similar, only Carrick seems to have a forward pass in him bar Pogba.
Lindelof for £30m or a nailed on CB for £50/60m? Seems a no brainier now. As does a good winger and a lb. The money is there, players are available for the right cost and we only bought half of what we need. And we could have jettisoned 4 or 5 players the other way. We’re in the same sort of situation as Liverpool with their cb’s. they must be kicking themselves they didn’t invest better.
I don't think there's such a thing as a nailed on CB even Bonucci has struggled at Milan, Otamendi & Mangala cost about £40m and neither of them settled at City, Rudiger seems to have settled in pretty well at Chelsea but Mustafi didn't last season. Any CB you sign especially from abroad is a gamble as you don't know how they'll settle into life at a new club playing with new players and it's clear so far Lindelof hasn't settled in as there's no way we'd have signed him if he was playing like this at Benfica we tracked him for over a year. He's still very young and has time to learn personally I'd put him in from the start vs Swansea and I think it was wise by Mourinho to criticise everyone rather than just the players who made individual mistakes, Mata for me having lost that ball must foul Mooy you can't let him run at goal.
It was blatantly obvious that Huddersfield had the energy on Saturday Utd looked dead on their feet and Huddersfield are an aggressive in your face team and we just weren't ready for the fight, there was no aggression from the Utd side at all. Keane always used to say you have to earn the right to play your football if all your opponent can do is run then match his running then let your ability take over never ever let your opponent beat you by working hard than you. This side still has a bit of a niggling habit of thinking they can beat the opposition without working as hard as them it's an unwarranted arrogance that comes through every now and again it didn't feel like anyone on the pitch on Saturday tried to snap everyone out of it and get the team going. That's not to say it's going around giving everyone an ear full or screaming your head of it can be as simple as taking the ball and playing safe for a bit look after it calm everyone down it's what Carrick does so well.
All this Rashford and Martial together talk, Rashford came off vs Benfica and probably wasn't 100% fit to play just like Anfield and sadly for us on Saturday Martial's head had clearly gone that late tackle and scuffle he had early on shook him and rather than let him go it clearly played on him it showed that he's still a little bit immature yeah he fronted up to the guy but true bravery on the pitch is to take the ball again and again and beat him the ball.
Wasn't just talking about the last week or so I mean this season, seems dead against playing the two of them together when surely one of them can do a job on the right, Martial Lukaku Rashford imo should be starting every game, Miki needs to do more for me so either play him No. 10 with Pogba/Matic behind or bring in Fellani/Herrera for 433.
Just my thoughts just dying to see them pair in the same side either side of Big Rom
I’ve been thinking the same for weeks, it’s like we just throw someone on the right because they can do a job there. Young, Lingard and Mata aren’t great there, surely Rashford is a better bet, I would say him more than Martial but got to be honest it would be exciting to see those three just let loose. However it’s not gonna happen but when you see the fluidity of the City front line all across and then you see us who has a right winger who can’t even reach the byline, it’s kind of depressing.
What would have happened if we had signed Perisic who also plays on the left? Just leave Martial and Rashford on the bench because they can’t play right side? It’s stupid in truth, Mbappé has been playing right for PSG and that’s clearly not his best position but he makes it work. I just think Jose needs to give it a go, could it really be any worse than Mata always cutting inside and slowing the play or Lingard not really doubt much of anything.
It’s the old conundrum, Stevie G and Lampard couldn’t play together and nor could a lot of other talented players. It’s plainly obvious that Rash and Tony M either play on the left or cf or not at all. They will not play left and right together, which truly baffles me.
Which then brings me to question why the big deal on Peresic, who clearly enjoys the left side too. We clearly have a rw/rcm problem so why didn’t Jose address that?
We really should have got rid of 4 or 5 players and bought a few extra in!
Both of them are really good playing on the left but neither really carries a threat when they play on the right most of that I think is because they were centre forwards as kids so they're happy to start left and come inside on to their stronger foot rather than go outside and put in crosses or come in from the right. It feels like we just need to work with one of them to train them how to do it because ideally you'd want both in the same side.
It was only the league cup but we saw them as a front 2 without Rom vs Burton and they ripped them apart you do wonder if we could see them play together in the league or play with Rom as centre forwards.
Reality is apart from Lingard none of our players are particularly good/consistent on the right so it might be worth giving it a go, during the game players can swap sides but I think Mourinho likes having one of them on the bench as his ace up his sleeve because unleashing their speed against a tired defence is a great way of killing a team off especially if they're already behind which is what we saw in the first few weeks of the season.
Yeah the Perisic one is a strange one as you say he plays on the left as well, be overloaded from the left if we had got him, as you guys say they love cutting in onto their stronger foot but surely they would be a better option that what we are going with at the minute, as you say just my two cents.
Anyone else think that three at the back would work well for us at the moment, Miki, despite his assists has not been great this year, Mata the same so even something like
Bailly Jones Rojo
Well that didnt come out like planned hahaha but 343, three CB, young valencia wing backs, matic pogba middle, martial rashford behind lukaku, that would cause carnage
I think there might be mileage in the back 3 but currently we're struggling to put together a back 2 one way we could play it right now would be having Blind as the spare centre back bit like David Luiz is as in theory he can bring the ball out but not sure we really have anyone to play on the left, it feels like that was what he really saw Perisic as giving him the option to do. I'd never really seen Perisic play for Inter but I caught the derby last weekend and he was fantastic exactly the type of player Mourinho wants for his counter attack and he'd be perfect for Lukaku as he puts in a great cross off either foot. He's also about 6ft 3 and built like a wardrobe but it's obvious that without players leaving we couldn't afford him.
I'm so sick of Ashley Young the man just isn't good enough he's a trier and and a grafter but he's just not of the quality and it feels like there's just no many of these guys around the squad at the moment feels like we've got plenty of quantity but nowhere near enough top level quality.
The big worry for me is the rumours and reports that Mourinho doesn't really coach the attack they're left to free style it a bit when they get the ball, Utd don't really seem to work on patterns of play at all whereas you can see that City, Chelsea & Liverpool definetly have patterns to their attacks he tends to work on plans to stop those patterns without the ball. Asking young players to play in this free style way can be very tough because they don't have that safety net of experience of knowing what works.
Man United players question 'cold' Mourinho - report - Football365
I mean if they're upset with his reaction it's a good job they live in a bubble and don't interact with fans the guys coming out of the away end on Sunday would've delivered a few home truths to these boys.
He had every right to be disappointed with the level of performance, when the attitude is like that the manager has to make it very clear that it's not acceptable.
Is a manager responsible for setting the tone and creating the right attitude?
They are grown human beings, Jose can't sit and set the tone for 25 adults, its got to the stage with football where players seem to take zero responsibility, next it will be its Jose's fault that so and so missed from 3 yards out or his decision making was poor or he misplaced a pass from 5 yards. My view is that these players are responsible, not everything can fall at the managers door, if they can't handle the fact he wants to win every week, which is the mindset every United fan wants their manager to have, then sorry but they should be shipped out and never wear the shirt again, don't care who it is, if they question the manager because he wants to keep pace with City, then get your bags packed and go play for Arsenal
I think a managers job is to create a culture and atmosphere that allows the team to succeed but if your players/staff don't meet those standards as the manager it's your job to remind them of the standards and bring them back in line which is what he did. It's no different to managing people at work be that in a supermarket, call centre, building site wherever as the manager you are responsible for the overall standards so you need to try and motivate your staff to reach those standards and if you feel they've let themselves down you need to let them know. Mourinho, Conte, Guardiola, Klopp all demand a lot from their players and it's why all of them see projects being short term as eventually players can't take anymore and they'll down tools and turn on your especially if the results go against you, they lose motivation. Footballers aren't robots they're human beings we all have good days and bad days at work and footballers are no different, Saturday just seemed like a rare day where nearly everyone was having an off day, makes you wonder if something happened before the game that killed the mood/spirit in the squad.
It's not just on Mourinho he has assistants and coaches and even captains in the dressing room who should also be making sure people have the right attitude but it just seems like the whole team was flat on Saturday, 3 away games in a week after an international breaks probably means extra nights in hotels away from families or friends, injuries piling up meaning players aren't getting proper rest between games and they just didn't seem to be prepared to put up a fight.
Yeah I get all that, which is fair enough but at the end of the day its not like were asking them to go 12 rounds with Anthony Joshua here, its run around a football pitch for an hour and a half and basically run as hard and press as hard as the opposition, were not asking them cure cancer or figure out the meaning of life.
I have had five days in hotels, hardly any sleep and 12 hours at conferences for 5 days solid and you power through it because its your job, off day or not you get through it and do your best, your gonna find it hard convincing me to feel sorry for them earning 150k a week to stay in 5 star hotels, first class seating on flights and having to train ever now and then, my heart bleeds, I will happily swap with them and go through all those awful issues haha
It was an off day but for me its no excuse, you at your physical peak and you have to run around a field twice a week for an hour and a half, jesus we all do it for free more than twice a week and get paid sod all for it.
I never really buy into the whole players earn x per week so they should be motivated simply because that money is guaranteed the only financial incentive clubs can give to players is bonuses be that individual or team bonuses so regardless of how they play that money still gets banked at the end of the month and it's guaranteed for the length of your contract it's not like a proper job where you can be sacked.
I just feel Saturday was when the team hit breaking point they weren't physically prepared for Huddersfield who are an in your face side it's how they got promoted and they will upset a few sides this season if you turn up and aren't on it. Spurs went there early in the season and were clearly ready and battered them 4-0 I think. Utd turned up looking like a team who were playing their 3rd away game in 7 days after spending 2 weeks away with internationals and had players dropping like flies with injuries. I personally think if Jones hadn't got injured Utd probably weathered that storm, sorted themselves out at half time and end up winning the game it seemed like Huddersfield ran out of steam in the 2nd half. We just had a mad 5 minutes after the sub and from their the game was lost as Utd didn't have enough in the tank to really go for them in the second half we gave it a go but after we got 1 back it was like we'd punched ourselves out a bit.
Can you honestly say that on day 5 of these conferences that you're as attentive as you were on day 1 or 2? Eventually like everyone you hit a wall, I know I do when I'm working long days back to back and doing lots of travel.
I couldn't disagree more JSP. I think footballers and fatigue is well over blown. Physical fatigue? These guys have some of the easiest lives going. There is no excuse for not putting in the effort. Mental fatigue towards the end of the season is understandable.
Take other sports in to account. NHL and NBA. 92 and 82 game seasons before the 7 game series post season starts which could be another 3/4 series and the distances travelled are much greater than that of footballers.
Oh yeah I was shattered mate not denying that but different between day 4 of a conference and coming out of your bubble to play for an hour and a half lol players these days are wrapped up in cotton wool
I see them as F1 cars they're finely tuned machines designed to work in certain conditions take them even 1mm out of their comfort zone and they don't perform, it's a sorry state of affairs but they're bred in a bubble and not taught how to fend/think for themselves any sort of free thinking is supressed in academies as it's seen as you challenging the coach. You can see it when things go wrong on the pitch all the players look to the manager for help you don't see any players grabbing people telling them what to do they're like robots.
Football is a strange career as while you only play 90 minutes and train for 2 hrs every day it's constantly impacting on your life as when you're not playing/training you should be resting to get yourself ready. It's not like they can nip down the pub with your mates, most of them are confined to their mansions because they're scared if they go out in public they'll end up in the papers so they create this weird little coocoon and detach themselves from any sort of reality.
Hopefully that was the wake up call for the players and it doesn't happen again, attitude seemed much better last night and it'll need to be spot on Saturday if we're going to beat Spurs which having dropped 5 points out of out last 6 we need to do.
All good arguments, I see both sides but ultimately like JSP says these guys, well paid or not, have off days cos they are only human. I used to look forward to playing Sunday football all week and if I had a bad game I’d be livid with myself and want to play again as soon as possible. I’m sure these guys are just the same.