Is Jose learning to attack ?

[jsp]

The defensive problems won’t go away and we need to look towards the board for that.

They won't go away to the point where we can win a title but I expect having a £15m a year manager things to improve if you want to earn the top money surely you have to be able to improve players?

Now some might be beyond improving the more senior guys and Jones but surely he can get some improvement out of Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw, Dalot over the next few months along with the fairly steady guys like Smalling, Young we can surely get a back 4 who can keep a clean sheet without De Gea being superman every game.

 

[jsp]

Well he was still smug instead of go to the away fans he went to the home fans shoved up three fingers and demanded respect.

He went to the away fans first gave them applause then on the way back gave the 3 to the home fans who'd been singing F off Mourinho to him.

I mean I might have selective memory but Moyes destroyed our club and pretty sure he didn't get anything from us when he came back.

 

[Mr C]

it's not just the back 4

I would say Smalling has improved, as has Shaw and to some degree Lindeloff.

I don't think Smalling has what it takes but he is steady enough and to be fair to him he's been our best CB for a number of years. And he hasn't made too many erros this year either from memory. Lindeloff would be the one I would be looking at to get the ball and bring it out of defence. But like most defenders from a different league, he has struggled with the prem, and not really adjusted. I hope we just stick with him no matter what. He is our best chance at this, he is a really good ball player which I think is why we bought him. His defending/confidence needs bringing up as I still think he could be top drawer.

The right is a problem with young and valencia for me.

Pogba made a mistake for the first goal, fair enough we all make mistakes, but he needs to improve his defending and he needs to be more switched on. So I think the midfield needs to improve this aspect too.

And Lukaku needs dropping. Play Rashford down the middle for a bit

I think a lot of our recent performaces have been due to lack of leadership and courage. The players have let the press get to them and they are a bit fearful to start, I guess when behind there is nothing to fear/lose.

Those two games where we lost two very quick goals in sucession I think still bothers them mentally.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

for sure, we are not brilliant, but we are moving in the right direction. I take a lot of hope out of those two games. Maily that all the press talk is nonsense, and this team is behind its manager and are at least starting to try.

Do you not think it's possible that you might have convinced yourself of this because the alternative is just uncomfortable and unpalatable? The idea that Jose is going to turn it around is so appealing I almost find myself tempted by it.

 

[Red Warrior]

for sure, we are not brilliant, but we are moving in the right direction. I take a lot of hope out of those two games. Maily that all the press talk is nonsense, and this team is behind its manager and are at least starting to try.

How can we be moving in the right direction? We've just beaten a crap team after coming from behind after playing like donkeys for 60/70 mins and drew with Chelsea after a decent 20 minute showing but then threw it away with woeful defending, which also contributed to the first goal.

How is this moving in the right direction? We're staggering from one game to the next by the skin of our teeth and the next loss will see everyone up in arms asking for Mourinhos head. It's just turned into a circus.

On top of that we've got Mr Ego in charge who just can't get through one game without making a cock of himself! What was all that about at the end with the Chelsea fans?? All he had to do was be smug and applaud them all, not stand there waving three fingers in the air and pointing at the Stford Bridge turf. The guy is 55 not 15 ffs

 

[Mr C]

Fair enough, I see the positive, a few weeks ago we would have lost those games. The players are really starting to put effort in. I think the rest will follow, for now it’s about fighting.

I could look on the negative side of things but I choose to pick the positives.

Everyone is different

 

[IDFD]

He’d just been abused by a member of Chelsea’s backroom staff and the fans are singing ‘feck off Mourinho’ to their most successful manager of all time. He’s right to make a point.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

He’d just been abused by a member of Chelsea’s backroom staff and the fans are singing ‘feck off Mourinho’ to their most successful manager of all time. He’s right to make a point.

I'm not saying it's right. But.....What's the betting that the "abuse" is connected to the bad feeling he left behind at the club? Jose abused that female doctor remember. It went to court. Maybe it's a residue from that? Was this guy at the club in 2015? I think he was a medical staff? Who knows.

What I do know is that there is such a thing as karma and you create it yourself by how you behave and treat people. Jose has always made it about him and his ego , so there's this negative energy around him. The way he leapt up out of his chair suggests a man not in control. If the stewards weren't there it could have got really nasty. Couldn't he just decide to have a week off and make sure that whatever happens he just says nothing and does nothing? Is that so hard?

I would agree that the Chelsea fans could have been more magnanimous but this guy just seems to be able to create negativity where it would seem impossible to do so. He gave Chelsea 3 titles and still manages to p**** those fans off.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

How can we be moving in the right direction? We've just beaten a crap team after coming from behind after playing like donkeys for 60/70 mins and drew with Chelsea after a decent 20 minute showing but then threw it away with woeful defending, which also contributed to the first goal.

How is this moving in the right direction? We're staggering from one game to the next by the skin of our teeth and the next loss will see everyone up in arms asking for Mourinhos head. It's just turned into a circus.

On top of that we've got Mr Ego in charge who just can't get through one game without making a cock of himself! What was all that about at the end with the Chelsea fans?? All he had to do was be smug and applaud them all, not stand there waving three fingers in the air and pointing at the Stford Bridge turf. The guy is 55 not 15 ffs

(SATIRE) We are moving in the right direction the numbers 3-2 and 2-2 tell us that. Nothing else matters remember. Football = numbers. This weeks numbers will tell us everything. 0-2 tuesday night and then we are not going in the right direction. 3-2 saturday and then we are back on track until the next 0-1. No matter that the long term core problem hasn't been fixed , if the numbers are right this week then everything's alright. zzzzzzzzz


Me? I've never changed my tune. Jose is the wrong man and it won't happen under him. We could beat City 5-0 at their place and I would be shocked but still unconvinced. Results come and go but issues don't disappear so easily.

 

[IDFD]

You started a thread asking if José is learning to attack and then make a mocking post when asked if José is moving in the right direction?

Surely the entire point of your thread is that you think José is moving in the right direction?

 

[Itsallinthemind]

You started a thread asking if José is learning to attack and then make a mocking post when asked if José is moving in the right direction?

Surely the entire point of your thread is that you think José is moving in the right direction?

No. It was a question. "Is Jose learning to attack?" The answer to this question could be yes or no or maybe. The answer for me is no. I agree I was a bit strong , but nevertheless I do believe we are deluding ourselves if we think he's suddenly had a light bulb moment.

 

[IDFD]

Well even if you aren’t saying yourself you think José is moving forward you’re implying there’s at least an argument to be had about it when posting the question and you’re saying it isn’t clear cut otherwise it wouldn’t be a sustain so to mock someone for answering if ridiculous.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

If you read my post on this thread (sunday 9.05am) you will see that there is a sense in which I do feel there has been some change and maybe a move forward. However , you will also see why I don't think it's any reason to start getting optimistic. If Jose is "learning to attack" then its a reactive and desperate thing based on crisis and going behind in games after dismal 1st half performances. It's backs against the wall thing. If your corner a rat it will bite.

What we are seeing I believe is a split personality United. A first half team that plays cautiously in the Jose way that we are accustomed to which produces dire football and doesn't actually work and then a second half team which then realises the pointlessness of this because they fall behind anyway and so plays with less fear and more adventure. Even Jose can't fail to notice that the 2nd half team look a much better team than the 1st half team and actually concede less goals not more.

What I'm looking for is some evidence that he has been having a complete re-think of his cautious tactics and evidence that he will apply a more adventurous approach in a 1st half before going behind. I see no evidence for any of this. Until I do it seems totally logical to assume that Jose will stick with caution and not let his team play with 2nd half tactics in BOTH halves. If that happens then over a longer period it will not work because you can't keep coming back from behind and only playing for 45 mins and expect it to work.

It's consistent with his stubborn personality that he will fail to see the evidence in front of his very own eyes that his tactics need a fundamental re-think. Basically I think these 2nd half performances are happening pretty much in spite of Jose not because of him. They are responses to the total crap served up in the first half. If I'm right we will see similar performances in the coming weeks , but we won't always be making a famous "come back". Even Fergie's teams could not have done that week after week.

When I have this realisation I don't feel great because it would be much easier to pretend that there's a turn around and hope for United. That would feel good. The problem is I have a brain that prevents me from believing such folly. We are all to ready to jump on some bandwagon that this is the beginning of something new but it's like that old saying goes "A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on"

 

[Mr C]

I disagree, I think the team is playing with too many nerves due the huge spotlight and critism. Playing for united is not playing for any otehr club.

I think once they go behind their nerves disappear because they have nothig to lose and their natural game comes out.

I don't think you can call Jose stubborn, he changes things in games all the time if things aren't working.

I think you take his prickly persona as being what he's like. When all the players that have played for him will tell you he is not like that, it's a persona for the press.

As for his antics at the weekend, I'm glad he reacted like that, he let the first one go, then reacted on the second. It's that kind of thing that gets the fans and players behind you. He then when and thanked all the United fans, on his way back he stuck 3 fingers up at the Chelsea fans to say he's been their most succesful manager and now he is with united. The Chelsea fans should have been more respectful. But that's what I expect form them really.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

I don't think you can call Jose stubborn, he changes things in games all the time if things aren't working.

You're missing the point. The one thing he never changes is his cautious , defensive approach to games. He only changes things when backs are against the wall.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

So 0-1 at home to Juventus. A limp , cautious performance. No continuity with the 2nd half at the Bridge. Pathetic.

 

[Mr C]

I'm in two minds about this, I can see being defensive against a side like Juve with the playing staff we have. Everyone like to say "what would Fergie have done" I imagine the same. But 1 - 0 down with 20 mins to go it would have been full attack, might as well lose 3 - 0 to 1 - 0.

It's quite clear something isn't right, do I think a new manager would get us atacking more, yes I do, do I think in the long term it will change things, no I don't, I don't think it will bring us any trophies either.

 

[boothstownred]

It was a really tricky one last night. On the one hand there wasn't much in attacking options to bring off the bench, but on the other hand doing nothing wasn't really an option. I don't really think that chong is ready for that type of game at this stage of his development but there is no point in having him on the bench if you have absolutely no intention of using him.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

I can see being defensive against a side like Juve with the playing staff we have

I'm struggling with that because when we are more attacking we seem to concede less goals. I also think there's a difference between being passively defensive and aggressively defensive. Shuffling around like statues isn't going to do it. Giving players too much time (or respect) isn't going to do it.

 

[IDFD]

We concede less when we’re attacking because the teams we’re attacking are already leading and don’t need to score.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

We concede less when we’re attacking because the teams we’re attacking are already leading and don’t need to score.

Whilst there is some truth in what you are saying I don't think Juve , Chelsea or Newcastle would have passed up the chance to score another goal. Chelsea still created great chances after going 1-0 up and Juve didn't exactly sit on their lead and park the bus. Even Newcastle had the ambition to score a second goal and nearly got a third before we got going. I think you've got so used to the Jose mentality of " go 1-0 up and then hold what you have" that you have forgotten that not all teams/managers think that way. You may have al;so forgotten a very simple truth - namely that it's quite hard to score a goal when you haven't got the ball and you are in your own half.

 

[IDFD]

I’ve not got used to anything and to put thoughts in my mind is disrespectful. I was actually conforming to your style of thinking that we only attack when we’re losing so give the individual attacks a break fgs.

And if you bothered with reading the match day threads you’d see I said less than half hour in move the god damn structure 15/20 yards forwards. I know football very well. I understand how the game works. I don’t need you to educate me at all.

 

[IDFD]

I mean would you agree whilst teams won’t pass up the chance to score they will show less attacking intent when winning?

 

[Itsallinthemind]

I’ve not got used to anything and to put thoughts in my mind is disrespectful. I was actually conforming to your style of thinking that we only attack when we’re losing so give the individual attacks a break fgs.

And if you bothered with reading the match day threads you’d see I said less than half hour in move the god damn structure 15/20 yards forwards. I know football very well. I understand how the game works. I don’t need you to educate me at all.

Fair enough mate. I apologise. I know you know how it works. I'm just really racked off with the whole thing and I'm utterly convinced that Jose should go like yesterday. I just don't know how desperately bad and passive we have to be before you completely lose faith in Jose. Last night was like Sevilla all over again , as if he learnt nothing. I can't wait to see how a different manager might set things up. I'm just sick of the whole thing and not feeling proud of being a United fan because our team doesn't seem to even have the belief to have a go. Just once I'd like to see Jose send them out with a fearless positive approach right from the start , even if it's just to see what might happen. Like a free hit in cricket , just to shake it up. I mean what have we got to lose? Just one sodding game where we just go out and express ourselves. Something to get the fans going. Just to see Juve looking rattled for 5 mins. But he never does. He's not a United manager.

A club that loses a game is disappointed. A club that loses it's soul has disappeared.

(*When you said "We concede less when we’re attacking because the teams we’re attacking are already leading and don’t need to score." I felt patronised. I do know that teams will sit on leads a bit. I probably just patronised you back.

Let's just agree that we've both watched a lot of football and know that game. I think to be honest you have a better understanding of formations etc and I think I have a better understanding of the psychological approach. Between the two of us we'd probably make a good coaching team? I guess the problem is that we'd have very different ideas about how to get results. )

 

[IDFD]

I suppose a lot of it stems from the admiration I’ve always had for Mourinho. This is the man who came over and reinvented football in England. Fergie couldn’t live with Mourinho when he came over his teams took English football to new levels. Back to back 90+ point seasons was unheard of. 90 points was the holy grail not the norm. Everyone in England had to adapt. Much like Guardiola now. And I refuse to believe the man that did that doesn’t have the ability to get it right again when he has consistently time and time again in his career. England Spain Italy Portugal numerous European trophies. A man with that much success and a Young 55 years of age isn’t done yet.

I totally agree with the idea of just giving something a go. Mentioned it somewhere the other day. Let’s go Fred Pogba Mata Sanchez Rashford Martial. We may get smashed but they’re all tidy players no big man let’s just see what happens if we try and play.

As for us being a coaching team. Perhaps we should get the CV ready for when Woodward does pull the plug.

 

[Mr C]

I kind of agree IDFD, I hate the football we are playing, but I just can't see it as 100% Jose, he is too good a coach to go from a prem winner to zero in 3 seasons. There must be other things going on.

Of course, some of it his fault, Lukaku, Bailly, Sanchez (that was probably Woodward) but all coaches get purchases wrong. I kind of think if Jose can't get this team to win, regardless of style, then no one will.

 

[JSNFRMN]

World Cup winning manager 'negatively surprised' by Man United's 'lack of playing football' - Sport Witness

 

[Itsallinthemind]

And I refuse to believe the man that did that doesn’t have the ability to get it right again when he has consistently time and time again in his career.

.....and that's the key to the whole difference between us. I don't have the same cognitive block as you. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that he may well have lost his way and might well never get it back. It happens all the time to people and not just in football or many sports. Everyone reaches a zenith in their career , even the greats, that's why there's so much talk in sport of people wanting to "go out while they are at the top" and retire with their dignity. But sometimes they carry on , desperately trying to re-capture something that will inevitably elude them , whilst simultaneously not realising that life has moved on and overtaken them.

There's lots of evidence for this. Jose was great for his time but football has changed now. High press has become more popular (and effective) . Teams play with more adventure and intensity. Other managers with different approaches are proving to be more effective. Pitches improve year by year so that playing tika taka football on the floor becomes more doable even in winter. The hoof it to Fellaini option looks more and more dated. Skilful quick players are coming to the fore more. Players like Lukaku (a poor man's Drogba) who can muscle their way to victory just don't look so dominant. Teams in the world cup don't park the bus so often. I could go on and on.

So where is the evidence that Jose is adapting? Not only that there's his deteriorating psyche , the negativity , the bust ups and excuses and stupid press conferences etc etc. All signs that the man is mentally not in the same place he was. He looks unhappy far too often , uncomfortable with his place in life. Then there are the occasional glimpses of the past , as if to show that he's still in there somewhere.

So for me it's not about the past or reputation , or about what I refuse to believe or choose to believe , it's about what I see in front of me right now. He might yet recover his past joi de vivre and his old tactics might come full circle again , but I just can't be bothered to wait that long to find out. Each dire performance and negative incident makes me more and more convinced that that time will never come. I'd sooner the club hunt for the next up and coming Mourinho with the new ideas and fresh approach that will take us forward.

I do wonder why you can't seem to see this happening and why your eyes are on the past and not the future.

 

[IDFD]

You mention the past not the future but fail to be in the present. Last season was our best league finish since Fergie retired in terms of points and league position. There has been improvement you just don’t allow your blinkered self to accept it. As much as I’m blinkered by Mourinho’s positives you’re far too much the other way.

Mourinho identified the weaknesses in the squad made it clear he felt he made mistakes in the transfer market and needed to sort it. You knew, I knew, the neighbours dog knew we needed a CB and a ready made RB in the summer. Woodward refuses to go ahead with it. Yet you fail to accept Woodward’s failings this summer will have affected the football this season. Mourinho also asked for Arnautovic. Knowing like most of us we needed a back up striker for when Lukaku is out of form. Woodward said no. But again let’s blame Mourinho for having no options.

Mourinho is working with one hand tied behind his back. Something you fail to accept. You bang on about Klopp and Poch. All with more time at their clubs and questionable better players available. They’ve won nothing and finished lower than us in the table. Don’t harp on about them currently being above us nothing is decided after 10 games. Mourinho if you like it or not as United manager is out performing them. It just isn’t as pretty as you like. Well guess what Fergie wasn’t always pretty. Both our champions league successes under Fergie involved Dogged Determination as much as anything else.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

You mention the past not the future but fail to be in the present. Last season was our best league finish since Fergie retired in terms of points and league position. There has been improvement you just don’t allow your blinkered self to accept it. As much as I’m blinkered by Mourinho’s positives you’re far too much the other way.

Mourinho identified the weaknesses in the squad made it clear he felt he made mistakes in the transfer market and needed to sort it. You knew, I knew, the neighbours dog knew we needed a CB and a ready made RB in the summer. Woodward refuses to go ahead with it. Yet you fail to accept Woodward’s failings this summer will have affected the football this season. Mourinho also asked for Arnautovic. Knowing like most of us we needed a back up striker for when Lukaku is out of form. Woodward said no. But again let’s blame Mourinho for having no options.

Mourinho is working with one hand tied behind his back. Something you fail to accept. You bang on about Klopp and Poch. All with more time at their clubs and questionable better players available. They’ve won nothing and finished lower than us in the table. Don’t harp on about them currently being above us nothing is decided after 10 games. Mourinho if you like it or not as United manager is out performing them. It just isn’t as pretty as you like. Well guess what Fergie wasn’t always pretty. Both our champions league successes under Fergie involved Dogged Determination as much as anything else.

Like I said , he's past it but still has some life in him. Doesn't surprise me that he got second last year , but that is still the past whichever way you cut it. The fact that you even entertain any hope that we could catch Klopp and his gang tells me a lot. They are going to finish at least 10 points ahead of us. Anyway , no manager ever gets exactly the players they want and Mourinho has out spent Klopp in his tenure.

At the moment he's buying 50 million pound players and then not bothering to even bring them off the bench when we are losing? You have to be able to work with what you have in life and only Real Madrid have ever been a club with a limitless cheque book. Last years improvement is only worth something if we kicked on , but we haven't. Klopp is building on what was achieved last season , that much is obvious. I'm all for dogged determination , grinding out results etc etc but this team doesn't even have that right now. When Fergie did it it was in tandem with a team that could also play great stuff and hurt the opposition. You also ignore the reasons why Lukaku might be out of form (or other players for that matter) , could it be anything to do with the manager? If Lukaku needs a rest then Jose should let him have one and try Rashford up there.

Nope. I'm afraid you are watching a shadowy swan song of a guy who was special and is now just quite good occasionally. I can see it clearly and it's painful to see so I understand why you might not want to see it and feel that pain.

 

[IDFD]

I give up with you. It isn’t a constructive conversation. It’s barely ever actually about United and always to do with your hatred of Mourinho. Try giving up the Mourinho subject and check out some of the other threads on the forum. You may start coming across as less bitter.

 

[Itsallinthemind]

I do not hate Jose per se. I hate what he’s doing to our club. I hate what Woodward is doing too. If I am bitter it’s because of the effect Jose has on us and the total nonsense we are putting out there on the pitch. That makes it very much about United. Because we are supposed to be a decent footballing team. What is United if it’s not about our footballing identity? This club is not some results spreadsheet. No results maniac can properly understand this club. Jose has never got it.

You try to make out I am some bitter and twisted Jose hater who has nothing better to do than stick pins in a Jose effigy. If you can make yourself believe that’s who I am then you don’t have to open your eyes and see just how naked the Emperor really is. The Emperor’s wedding tackle is swinging around right in front of your very eyes and you still hark back to his glorious past.

I’m sorry you feel this way. I happen to have reached the point where I think those who still have faith in him are utterly deluded. Lost to the Jose myth. I know that it won’t be too long before it all implodes and you see this for yourself. Maybe we can discuss this again after he’s sacked? Until then I’ll sit tight and pray for that day and hope United can do damage limitation. See you on other threads.