Is it Mourinho or the player? Or both?

Red Warrior

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#1
So we lost to Brighton today with a team more than capable of winning. Most United XI's would beat Brighton.

I thought Mourinhos team selection was good.

So my question is, is it the players, the manager or both who are to blame?
 

jsp

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#2
Manager didn’t come up with a plan and he’s not motivating them to play at the best.

Players didn’t work as hard as the opposition allowed nerves to spread and lost focus and to many hid leaving Pogba as the only guy who wanted the ball.

Way to often the ball goes into a player and he’s got no passing option meaning he has to scramble to try and find a pass.

You watch this team and wonder what the hell do we do in training all week as every game we look like a team of XI players who’ve never met each other before.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#3
Both, but Mourinho is more to blame. The manager is the most important person at the club. He sets the tone. He defines the identity. He inspires the team. There is no style, identity nor passion.
 

IDFD

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#4
I don’t get this manager isn’t motivating them stuff. My boss isn’t walking around my office smashing out high fives they’re professional footballs self motivation should be a thing. They should all be disgusted with themselves today.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#5
I don’t get this manager isn’t motivating them stuff. My boss isn’t walking around my office smashing out high fives they’re professional footballs self motivation should be a thing. They should all be disgusted with themselves today.
How would you react if you was criticised by your boss in front of your fellow work colleagues to deflect attention away from their own shortcomings?
 

IDFD

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#6
I work in the building trade that happens on a regular basis. You pick yourself up dust yourself down get your job done and talk to them in private.

If people have a regular video feed of me at work I’d have been sectioned. I regualarly talk to people in a way I shouldn’t when stressed and having to meet deadlines that can implicate massive fines.
 

Sideshow Bob

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#7
I work in the building trade that happens on a regular basis. You pick yourself up dust yourself down get your job done and talk to them in private.
You might react in that manner, but there will be others who will become disgruntled and disillusioned. Footballers are different than us common folk.
 
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#8
Do players really care enough these days? They turn up each week, get their £100k and go back to their mansions. Do these players really whole heartedly play for the shirt? Where’s the guts? The passion? Sure you can blame Jose and he’s part of the problem but the players must have a long hard look at themselves.
 

jsp

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#9
I work in the building trade that happens on a regular basis. You pick yourself up dust yourself down get your job done and talk to them in private.

If people have a regular video feed of me at work I’d have been sectioned. I regualarly talk to people in a way I shouldn’t when stressed and having to meet deadlines that can implicate massive fines.
I work in the same trade and a d*ckhead manager can cost you hours in productivity if he's constantly on peoples back and creates a negative environment for people to work in they don't care. Very quickly this is resolved by changing management on a project not changing the workforce because replacing 1 is easier than replacing 10 if it gets really bad same goes one bad apple in a gang can bring everyone down.

Part of the role of a manager is to motivate his staff and make them want to work he clearly isn't doing that very well as to often we get these half arsed sloppy performances especially away from home. They either don't believe in the plan he's giving them or the plan is fatally flawed or even worse there isn't really a plan because it all seems to be off the cuff stuff when we get the ball.
 
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#10
The answer is both.

The manager has created this atmosphere within the club where I feel there are a lot of players who just aren't willing to fight for their manager. He's fallen out with too many players and that's now created a real issue.

But the players have to do more. They need to fight for their future at this club and fight for the badge and too many players aren't doing that.

There's no style though and that comes down to the manager. What is he trying to build? What is the philosophy? I mean you look at Arsenal and its already very evident what Emery wants to do and what style he wants to play in. We are in the third year with Jose and its still not clear at all.
 

Mr C

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#11
Regardless of all of this. I just wanted to comment on how sad it is that the club is in this state. About 1975 I started supporting this club. And this is a new low. It just seems an absolute mess, as far away from a family as you could imagine.
A lot of this must be labelled at the glazers, they have basically turned one of the best clubs in the world into a business. They hired a chief exec who had no experience in football so they could extract as much money out of the club as possible.
Becasue of this lack of experience they hired the wrong managers and bought the wrong players, payed them wages beyond their worth so now we have a team of players not good enough on wages so high no other club can afford them and they wont leave. And teh bank appears empty now.

Yes Jose is not as exciting as we all want, but I have seen his Chelsea, Inter, Madrid sides. They did not play like this. This is a huge problem and the players are part of it.

Unfortunately I can only see one way out, and that is the manager, but I don't think that is fair becasue the Glazers, Woodward and the players are all culpable.

I actually feel sorry for Jose.
 
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#12
Unfortunately I can only see one way out, and that is the manager, but I don't think that is fair becasue the Glazers
Ultimately I think Jose made a mistake when he came in and I felt the same of LVG and Moyes. They all came in and gave the players at the club a chance.

Now I get that it's a fine balance and a lot of managers would do the same. And I can see why Moyes and LVG did that. But after those failed attempts I think Jose should have come in and cleared house.

As a result there are too many players here just aren't good enough and haven't been for a long time. And so yes Jose, Ed and the players have to take the blame.
 

Red Warrior

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#13
Every Man Utd fan is up in arms at the minute but it's the second game of the season, quite a few players were coming back for their first game and things will take time to click again as a few looked rusty like Lukaku and Lingard.

But, lets not mistake that that performance was dire. A lot of the comments on this and other threads are correct in the fact we have no clear way of playing, we look like individuals playing in a team and Jose seems to me unable to change things despite starting his 3rd season here. His 2 cb signings looked more comical than the Chuckle Brothers yesterday, Pogba was woeful even though he seemed the only one with any desire to play and the rest of the team just went missing. Jose has a big hole to try and get out of!
 

Red Warrior

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#14
Ultimately I think Jose made a mistake when he came in and I felt the same of LVG and Moyes. They all came in and gave the players at the club a chance.

Now I get that it's a fine balance and a lot of managers would do the same. And I can see why Moyes and LVG did that. But after those failed attempts I think Jose should have come in and cleared house.

As a result there are too many players here just aren't good enough and haven't been for a long time. And so yes Jose, Ed and the players have to take the blame.

How do you ship out players who don't want to leave because they are on silly wages and are happy to sit on the bench every week?
 
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#15
How do you ship out players who don't want to leave because they are on silly wages and are happy to sit on the bench every week?
So the answer is you don't go out and sign better players? Let them rot in the reserves until their contract is up. It's not an excuse to be in this position.
 

Red Warrior

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#16
No excuse granted but players like Darmian, Rojo (who crazily got a new improved contract only a few months ago), Mata, Martial etc etc won't be left to rot in the reserves due to the fact they are getting paid massive wages and need to play. Your not gonna have all those players in the reserves on wages like that. It's not their fault they are on huge wages. What would you do at your work if you were in the same position?

It's just a tricky situation. There are however lots of players coming to the end of their contracts at the end of this season so they HAVE to go then
 

IDFD

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#17
Remember when Mourinho exiled Bastien to the reserves and the uproar for how he was treating him. Now imagine if he did that to Martial and Mata.
 

jsp

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#18
Don't think anyone was particularly bothered apart from the people of Munich and a few fan boys it wasn't nice but he'd sacked off 6 months of the season to get himself fit for Euro 2016 and needed to go, I was massively dissapointed by him and his attitude while at Utd he massively mugged us off.

I honestly think a few more guys needed that treatment this summer basically told find new clubs or you won't be playing football next season and just cut losses even if it left us a bit short which is why Fellaini shouldn't of been given a new contract either same with Rojo they simply aren't good enough take the losses on the chin and move on.

It's not particularly nice when it happens but you need to be ruthless and the ones it would happen to aren't long serving legends of the club like Pep had to deal with at City he moved out Hart, Yaya, Zabaletta almost straight away and I think he'd like to shift Kompany & Aguero to but he can't yet.

I just think there's a group of players happy to be bit part players at Utd rather than starters at mid table teams like Leicester if players seriously wanted to play a lot of these lads would've left by now players like Evans, Nani & Hernandez even Welbeck forced moves because they wanted to play I see to many players happy to stay at Utd for a pay cheque and be bit parts.
 

Mr C

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#19
So one hand you are admitting the players aren't good enough. But you blame Jose for this? When it is Woodward who has negotiated these ridiculous contracts. Rojo had a few offers this summer, but he gets too much money at united to leave.
Increasingly it is becoming clear the problem is not Jose, but the players and the guy who is in charge of their contracts. Fellaini, I agree he should never even been at the club. But the reality is it would have cost 50 odd million to replace our 4/5th choice CM. It's cheaper to give him a deal. Woodward again. The problem there was not the new deal, but signing him in the first place.
 
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#20
Remember when Mourinho exiled Bastien to the reserves and the uproar for how he was treating him. Now imagine if he did that to Martial and Mata.
So the answer is we have to keep them and play them? Whether they are good enough or not? Then condemn us to not being a title contender for a couple more years at least. That's a terrible strategy.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#22
I don’t get this manager isn’t motivating them stuff. My boss isn’t walking around my office smashing out high fives they’re professional footballs self motivation should be a thing. They should all be disgusted with themselves today.
Players get de-motivated in direct proportion to how much they believe in each other and the manager and the system they are playing. Many pundits are starting to notice that this is beginning to happen now. There's even suggestions that some players don't want to come here because of him. At Chelsea we saw how far this can go when Jose lost the dressing room.

Yes , they are self motivating but it's not enough to compete properly. Professional footballers will always try and be professional but they will go the extra mile for manager they believe in. It was obvious that Houghton has the Brighton players in a very different head space than ours. There's harmony at Brighton from chairman down to the players and the players go that extra mile. Jose doesn't create harmony , he's creates toxic drama.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#23
So the answer is we have to keep them and play them? Whether they are good enough or not? Then condemn us to not being a title contender for a couple more years at least. That's a terrible strategy.
We have little idea how good some of these players are in reality. A different manager could transform some of them by injecting a positive way of playing and an end to moaning and criticising.
 

jsp

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#24
So one hand you are admitting the players aren't good enough. But you blame Jose for this? When it is Woodward who has negotiated these ridiculous contracts. Rojo had a few offers this summer, but he gets too much money at united to leave.
Increasingly it is becoming clear the problem is not Jose, but the players and the guy who is in charge of their contracts. Fellaini, I agree he should never even been at the club. But the reality is it would have cost 50 odd million to replace our 4/5th choice CM. It's cheaper to give him a deal. Woodward again. The problem there was not the new deal, but signing him in the first place.
Woodward might negotiate the fees/wages along with other parties but Mourinho spefically requested Fellaini was given a new contract and my guess is he also sanctioned the new deal for Rojo while he was injured. Players aren't getting new contracts without the manager signing off on it what the club decide to pay the player to get the deal done is not his problem. Rojo had 1 solid offer from what I read to join Wolves but he wasn't prepared to join a promoted club wants to play european football, Everton were apparently interested but he was plan B or C for them not a serious target and there's been rumours about clubs in Europe being interested.

Does Fellaini cost £50m to replace if you're going to use Periera/McTominay or even re-deploy Lingard in a centre midfield role?
 

Mr C

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#25
Mctominay was already in the squad and so was Lingard who is not a central midfielder anyway, and we lost Carrck too. You are looking for a way to have a go at him again, he had no choice because he wanted the money spending elsewhere and it never got spent anywhere

Fellaini at the club is not a Jose problem, it's Woodward and Moyes.
 

IDFD

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#26
I saw this quote from Fergie’s third season in charge.

Clearly, their final position in the table was far less than expected and, with the side described as ''hard working, methodical and dull'', Fergie's cautious style was hardly winning over the fans either.

We’re lucky the Internet didn’t exist then or he’d have been hounded out before his success started.
 

jsp

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#27
Mctominay was already in the squad and so was Lingard who is not a central midfielder anyway, and we lost Carrck too. You are looking for a way to have a go at him again, he had no choice because he wanted the money spending elsewhere and it never got spent anywhere

Fellaini at the club is not a Jose problem, it's Woodward and Moyes.
He's playing a 3 man midfield and he'd signed Fred before Fellaini agreed a new deal and Lingard was playing in centre mid in a 3 at the World Cup.

Fred was the Carrick replacement 1 in 1 out but he's also got Periera back from Valencia on loan so could he not replace Fellaini or Lingard being used in a different role?

Fellaini still being at the club is a Mourinho problem because he made it clear to the board last season he wanted him to stay he even went public in his support of Fellaini he hopes the club can agree new terms with him that was well before he left the fabled list with Woodward.

If I was Fellaini why would you stay the fans hate you and you're not first choice the only reason is he's getting paid a lot more here than he'd be offered by others and the clubs who'd be interested in taking him are of a much lower profile than Utd.

This isn't necessarily a dig at Mourinho it's just highlighting the general mess the clubs in at the moment and it seems like there's no way out of it. As bad as we have been at signing the right players over a sustained period our ability to get players we no longer out seems even worse.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#28
I saw this quote from Fergie’s third season in charge.

Clearly, their final position in the table was far less than expected and, with the side described as ''hard working, methodical and dull'', Fergie's cautious style was hardly winning over the fans either.

We’re lucky the Internet didn’t exist then or he’d have been hounded out before his success started.
Oh come on , the task Fergie had was completely different. No league title for 2 decades and a load of dead wood. Very different now.
 

JSNFRMN

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#29
Both, but Mourinho is more to blame. The manager is the most important person at the club. He sets the tone. He defines the identity. He inspires the team. There is no style, identity nor passion.
Spot on. We've had 3 managers and they've all been pragmatists. Did anyone see Rio Ferdinand talking about Moyes on BT Sport Saturday night? It was very interesting and I think what he said still stands today. We focus too much on the opposition no matter who it is and that works against sides equal or greater than us as seen under Van Gaal and Mourinho but we used to concentrate on our strengths against all others not worry about the likes of Brighton.

We were on the back foot for the majority of both the first 2 games. We were quite lucky to get that penalty in the opening minute v Leicester, it was a fair decision but seen them not given. We sat back and were lucky not to concede on a couple of occasions, we scored again and sat back and conceded again. The players are not faultless, but they’ve lost belief in what they’re being sent out to do. It’s become more and more negative in the 3 years. That first season there were a lot of games where we’d say “opposition keeper’s had a worldie”, Lee Grant for one, and then other games the woodwork would be a problem. We don’t create those chances anymore, we don’t have games where we’re throwing everything at them to score. Start to last season was fine too but it’s gone south since Mourinho’s contract extension.
 
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#30
We have little idea how good some of these players are in reality. A different manager could transform some of them by injecting a positive way of playing and an end to moaning and criticising.
You are right to an extent... But some of these players weren't good enough under LVG. Others weren't good enough under LVG and Moyes and there are even some who a weren't good enough under LVG and Moyes and Fergie.
 

jsp

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#31
I just don't see how it can't be both responsible for this mess and I'd add the board to it everyone has played apart in how we've gone from title challengers every year for 25 years to nowhere near in 5 years.

Route cause of this was absolutely no succession plan for Ferguson and Gill when they decided they were to go and it was a double whammy as both went together at short notice it was obvious Woodward would take over Gill from the moment he came into the club he was the Glazer guy but there was no plan for the management.

Fergie was 71 when he announced his retirement what sort of organisation doesn't plan for the retirement of a 71 year old key member of staff changes could have been made while he was still in position and plans developed with him there but I think everyone was just kicking the can down the road knowing full well they'd be leaving it to the next guy to sort.

They made a terrible decision to appoint Moyes and are still paying the price today a poor quality squad has been assembled these aren't players that fit the Utd traditionals and managers that don't fit those traditions have been appointed.

One thing I'd like to know is when Mourinho agreed that new deal last season surely the plans for the summer were discussed. Did he say he wanted to overhaul the squad and sign some senior players and the club agreed to it or did he say he'd go with their plan just to get his contract done and his salary protected. I just don't see how 6 months down the line the club and the manager can be so far apart of agreeing a transfer strategy.

As for players simply put a squad has been poorly assembled by various managers over a 5 year period.

De Gea, Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Valencia, Cleverley, Carrick, Welbeck, Kagawa, RVP that from memory was pretty much Fergies last starting XI for big games in his title winning season. On the bench we had players like Scholes, Giggs, Hernandez, Rooney, Nani, Young Fletcher, Evans etc.

So of the XI starting positions in 5 years and god knows how much money I think we've upgraded Cleverley & Welbeck with Pogba & Sanchez. The title winning team was sold off for pennies/retired and largely replaced by players who are technically inferior, mentally weaker and sadly a few mercenaries who took us to the cleaners for a pay day because their current club wanted them out Di Maria & Schweni.
 

Red Warrior

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#32
I'm reading and listening to loads of stuff on Utd at the minute. What I'm understanding is that the players aren't happy with the style of play, so it's coming down to the managers tactics again. It doesn't matter what formation you play, if the tactics are wrong it wont work. Pogba's heat map shows he spent most of the Brighton game in his own half when he is our attacking player and Martial and Mata hovered over the half way line with Lukaku playing where a no.10 would. Thats negative tactics, we need to be higher up the pitch. The passing needs to be much quicker. I heard someone say on the radio yesterday, if Brighton lost the ball, they could have each done their shoe laces up, jogged over to have a chat with Houghton and still got back in time for Utd to pass the ball into midfield. Laughable.

Jose came out and said the players aren't happy, I wouldn't be happy playing defensive football as a winger (back in the day lol) either. Jose has to sort this out. He's worried, rightly, that the defence won't cope if the midfield don't offer protection but it's killing us going forward. I think we've got to get going, if we ship 3 we score 4! The fans would love the entertainment too!
 
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#33
The thing is I think the powers that be at the club need to agree a clear strategy and then go out and execute.

Do they care about the style of football on the pitch? Do they want us to sign young players to develop and sell on for a profit? Something I think Fergie did very well. Do they want to splash the cash on top experienced players? I think the answer to that is very obviously no given this summer but they've spent a lot since Fergie went.

They've spent too much time bringing in the wrong managers and in turn the wrong players. They've paid players too much and are now stuck with them. They've brought in players who just aren't good enough to play for the club. And they've hired managers with different styles that require certain types of players to fit their scheme.

It's been a mess for a few years now and there's still no sign of a strategy. Maybe a Director of football will help create the vision and then go about trying to deliver it? But right now there's no vision. There's no strategy and if there is one then there are people within the club who don't buy in to it.

Start afresh and do it soon I say. Move Woodward in to a different role. He's great at getting us new sponsors and the marketing side. Bring in a DoF and sack Jose. Offload the deadwood and start again with a clean slate almost. Until we do that this nonsense is going to continue.
 

Red Warrior

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#34
Surely we should have a mix of younger players and experienced players? Surely they should care about the style of football because if the style is crap supporters moan, if the style is crap and results are bad, supporters are literally calling for the managers head and that causes friction within a club.

It's simple really, if the style is entertaining the fans will be on your side. Manchester United didn't get a 600m world wide fan base by playing negative dour football and never would have got those supporters if we hadn't been a good team to watch in the past.

We're currently LOSING young supporters who are choosing City to support over us as they grow up as they play great football and win. We do neither.
 

Itsallinthemind

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#35
I just don't see how it can't be both responsible for this mess and I'd add the board to it everyone has played apart in how we've gone from title challengers every year for 25 years to nowhere near in 5 years.

Route cause of this was absolutely no succession plan for Ferguson and Gill when they decided they were to go and it was a double whammy as both went together at short notice it was obvious Woodward would take over Gill from the moment he came into the club he was the Glazer guy but there was no plan for the management.

Fergie was 71 when he announced his retirement what sort of organisation doesn't plan for the retirement of a 71 year old key member of staff changes could have been made while he was still in position and plans developed with him there but I think everyone was just kicking the can down the road knowing full well they'd be leaving it to the next guy to sort.

They made a terrible decision to appoint Moyes and are still paying the price today a poor quality squad has been assembled these aren't players that fit the Utd traditionals and managers that don't fit those traditions have been appointed.

One thing I'd like to know is when Mourinho agreed that new deal last season surely the plans for the summer were discussed. Did he say he wanted to overhaul the squad and sign some senior players and the club agreed to it or did he say he'd go with their plan just to get his contract done and his salary protected. I just don't see how 6 months down the line the club and the manager can be so far apart of agreeing a transfer strategy.

As for players simply put a squad has been poorly assembled by various managers over a 5 year period.

De Gea, Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Evra, Valencia, Cleverley, Carrick, Welbeck, Kagawa, RVP that from memory was pretty much Fergies last starting XI for big games in his title winning season. On the bench we had players like Scholes, Giggs, Hernandez, Rooney, Nani, Young Fletcher, Evans etc.

So of the XI starting positions in 5 years and god knows how much money I think we've upgraded Cleverley & Welbeck with Pogba & Sanchez. The title winning team was sold off for pennies/retired and largely replaced by players who are technically inferior, mentally weaker and sadly a few mercenaries who took us to the cleaners for a pay day because their current club wanted them out Di Maria & Schweni.
Absolutely spot on about the lack of any proper plan for Fergies retirement. That was the real failure. Complacency maybe?
 
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