Finances Thread

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by RedKnight, Feb 19, 2010.

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  1. RedKnight

    RedKnight Member

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  4. MUFC_Rooney

    MUFC_Rooney Member

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    I'm not sure if a boycott will work. United are massive, there will always be a number of fans that were previously unable to get tickets wanting to go.
     
  5. Fergie_Time

    Fergie_Time Member

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Anyone going to the protest during reserve game in a couple of weeks?
     
  6. Bestie

    Bestie Active Member

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Top city financiers have been holding secret talks about a potential bid for Manchester United, Sky News can reveal.

    Apparently the Glazers have stated United are not for sale.
     
  8. Bestie

    Bestie Active Member

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  9. Bestie

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  11. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: Ferguson voices his faith in Glazer family regime

    I've lost faith in the Red Knights already. Time to get back to the thing we do best...supporting United.
     
  12. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: Ferguson voices his faith in Glazer family regime

    Planning to go to the first home game of the season in August. Can't wait. Saw my mate who goes up nearly every week today, 2nd thing he asked..."are you coming up next season?" He's dying for me to go up to Old Trafford with him.
     
  13. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    PIK bonds.

    It's real easy for everyone to rant and hit out at the glazers but what grounds do we have? Do we have any hard evidence of them failing as owners.

    Yes. We haven't been big spenders on world class talent since we bought Berbatov for over 30m.
    That's the only hard evidence we have. People are ranting about the debt and especially the PIK bonds. Let me try to elaborate on this.

    Facts:
    We know the face/principal value, the min price for the sold bonds.
    We know the coupon rate, the interest rate
    We know the maturity, the date when its time for, in a easy word, payback:)

    The fact is we don't see the full picture...This are the facts the media an a lot of fans are ranting about. But there is one key factor missing.
    What did the investors buying the bonds really pay.

    Bonds:
    A bond is easiest explain by calling it a loan. UTD needed money. And buy selling bonds they took up a "loan" but actually how much they got is unknown.
    This because we only know the principal value not what was actually paid.

    So the glazers probably got a pretty decent price for the bonds. And that in fact might have put quite a bit of cash into the transfer funds...

    To put it as easy as possible:

    UTD have to pay the principal value + the coupon rate in 2017(i think) this is causing a lot of fuss.
    But we have to look at the net present value of this investment to see the full picture.

    Matematically:
    Price(what the club got paid) - (coupon rate * principal value) * ((1+IRR)^number of years until down payment - 1)/(IRR*(1+IRR)^number of years until down payment) + principal value / (1 + IRR)^number of years until down payment = 0

    The clue her is to find IRR. this gives us the information we need to start ranting or stop ranting....

    We know the coupon rate, number of years until down payment and principal value. As I said earlier, the clue is what the club got paid. Without that
    it's both hopeless and stupid to just take a stand and hate the glazers. It actually just says that your knowledge of economy isn't all that much.

    How many of you guys can solve this equation, how many of you event understand half of it. I just wrote this but still have trouble understanding.
     
  14. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    Yes, there is a fair amount of debt. But just to see the number 700m or something in debt and think. Thats a lot of money is a to easy way to look at it.
    You have approach it in relative terms. How much of the total capital (TC) is debt? I don't know this number but. Put it like this...

    Most companies a lot of debt. Its normal. Say a most common debt-share of total capital is 80%. That means if you have 20% equity capital (EC) and 80% debt (D).
    In UTDs case this would mean TC = D + EC = 700 + 175 = 875. This is not bad for at all. But if our EC was only 50 we would have only 6,67% of EC, this isn't much to brag about. again we don't see the full picture and therefore can't chose sides based on the limited info we have.
     
  15. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    EC at 9% isn't all that much. Will be interesting to see what news comes next week.
     
  16. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    Always have. Always will:)
     
  17. H Stand

    H Stand Active Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    I'm no financial expert but

    2005 debt £0
    2010 debt £700 mill

    2005 United continue buy top players at top prices(Keane,Yorke,Cole, Sta,, Raud etc)
    2010 United buy cheap hopefuls or has beens and wannabes (Hernandez, Diouf,Macheda, Welbeck,Owen)

    2005 Season tickets were gold dust
    2010 A ticket can be purchased for virtually every home game on general sale

    2005 We had a a transfer balance in the red
    2010 We have a transfer balance in the black

    Put simply we used to shop at Waitrose we now shop at Pound Shop
     
  18. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    Just some clarifications...

    2005 debt £0, wrong. every club has debt
    2010 debt £700 mill, we have alot more today, thats true, there are good financial reasons to have debt (tax reduction etc..)

    2005 United continue buy top players at top prices(Keane,Yorke,Cole, Sta,, Raud etc)
    2010 United buy cheap hopefuls or has beens and wannabes (Hernandez, Diouf,Macheda, Welbeck,Owen) wrong: hargy, berba, an around 10m for alot of young prospects.i consider transfer fee around 20m+ a big singning..

    2005 Season tickets were gold dust
    2010 A ticket can be purchased for virtually every home game on general sale, from a financial point of view, if you raise the price and the stadium is still full, its the right thing to do

    2005 We had a a transfer balance in the red, thin depends heavily on the period you look at
    2010 We have a transfer balance in the black, count ronaldo out and its will be another story, ronaldo was a very special case as it has been the last seasons with real and city..
     
  19. worriedturkey

    worriedturkey Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    just a little word to h stand about the quality players we were buying before 2005

    2000-2005 how many trophies
    2005-2010 how many trophies
     
  20. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    good point turk
     
  21. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    http://www.mufplc.com/[URL] Still ...winning things these protests are not needed.
     
  22. Diggy

    Diggy Well-Known Member

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    The Glazers are selling the Tampa Bay Bucs so why not sell United too ? I am not comfortable with them handling United... If they couldn't manage the Bucs, an NFL team which is no where near United in regards to history,stature,tradition and everything in between,what makes them think they can run United ?
     
  23. Scholesy18

    Scholesy18 Well-Known Member

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    The problem with United is it's too expensive. 1.2bn+ is not easy fan or no fan. What MUST is doing now should have been done back when United was still a PLC. You know, secure like 30% of the club hence prevent any takeover, but am not blaming them cos everyone felt United was too big to get taken over.

    I agree that the money is the issue, hence why I said it would have to be fans who took over. From a business point of view it makes no sense, which is why I can't agree with those who say "we'll be alright, some Arab or Chinese billionaire will bail us out", because they won't.For the money it would cost to buy United you could buy Everton, build them their new 50000 stadium, invest £300m in the playing staff and still have change. It was Knights or bust as far as ditching the owners was concerned and it appears to be the latter. What worries me is that a couple of bad seasons and it may come to that.
     
  24. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    The Red Knights will forever be outbidded by other parties. The Red Knights consist of around 40 businessmen and they can't match 1 guy from Dubai or wherever.
     
  25. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Didn't know where else to put this but our deal with Aon has kicked off. Money! Money! Money!

    "The sponsorship and charity campaign were launched at Old Trafford this morning by executives of Aon and Manchester United, alongside club legends Sir Bobby Charlton, Bryan Robson and Quinton Fortune." http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={48C41513-A376-4D1F-981D-660FC5BB193E}&newsid=6649537&page=1

    Is Quinton a legend? More of a cult hero, if anything.

    Here's a bit more on who and what Aon are. http://www.manutd.com/default.sps?pagegid={48C41513-A376-4D1F-981D-660FC5BB193E}&newsid=6649536
     
  26. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Didn't know where else to put this but our deal with Aon has kicked off. Money! Money! Money!

    "The sponsorship and charity campaign were launched at Old Trafford this morning by executives of Aon and Manchester United, alongside club legends Sir Bobby Charlton, Bryan Robson and Quinton Fortune." http://bit.ly/bgPL5a

    Is Quinton a legend? More of a cult hero, if anything.

    Here's a bit more on who and what Aon are. http://bit.ly/ahGPwi
     
  27. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Statement from the Red Knights expected in the morning.
     
  28. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: The Glazer thread

    Probably that they will continue to plan a bid and encourage fans to not feel letdown and not to back down next season with the protests. Fans could backlash against them if they call for a boycott. I think that's the wrong route to go down.
     
  29. H Stand

    H Stand Active Member

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    Re: PIK bonds.

    Hmm intersting!
    2005 : £42 mill clear profit with millions in cash set aside for the building of the quadrants to extend the stadium.
    2010: Reliant on the sale of our best player at a world record fee to ensure we make the same profit

    2005: (Pallister,Keane,Bloomquist,Cole.Yorke,Johnson,Parker,Van Nistlerooy,Stam) to name a few players (international) bought up till then off the top of my head. As well as dealing with Abramovich who had come on the scene.
    2010: Free transfers, hasbeens, cheap prospects.

    BTW Berbatov was bought with moneys brought in for the sale of Richardson,Shawcross, David Jones and to some degree Saha. Have we had the promised Glazer 30 million a year transfer fund, don't think so!

    2005: My season ticket was £550, cup games optional
    2010: My season ticket £930 plus aprrox 10X £49 cup games as part of the automatic cup scheme.
    OT full ? You couldn't have been there for the Leagure Cup and eaaly Cl games where there were 20,000 empty seats, more to come next year methinks.

    2000-2005 2 Premierships, 1 FA Cup, 1 World Club Championship
    2005-2010 3 Premierships, 1 CL, 3 League Cups, 1 Club Championship
    Not bad when Fergie had taken his eye off the ball when dealing with the Irish horse race breeders.
     
  30. g@mb!t

    [email protected]!t Well-Known Member

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    Cant they just sell up and get lost :(, getting irritating tbh

    and Media is jus dying to prove that we have no cash!!
     
  31. dalegute

    dalegute Well-Known Member

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    Glazers as well as the rest of the world has experienced the full effect of a global economic crisis.
    - Impossible to know the truth and see the full size (big or small) of the problem. Would other owners
    not feel the crisis. If we had filthy rich owners like CIty and Chelsea probably not, but do we want to
    be like them?

    Media will always spin it "their" way.
    - Stupid to believe even half of what they put out there.

    Green and Gold campaign hates glazers.
    - Stupid to put the blame on the glazers with out knowing the full story.
    G&G believe everything they write that reflects negatively on Glazers.
    Do we believe everything they write about the transfer market and possible summer signings?

    David Gill's job is to sell the "United" brand and captain the ship to Utd's benefit, not ours. He has said a
    couple of strange things lately. The same can be said about SAF.
    - We should keep in mind what would happen to Man Utd's value if both Gill and SAF poured
    gazoline on the fire. Don't rant them for making the best of a bad situation.

    I'm not saying I support the Glazers I'm just saying that the only hard evidence, and what is making
    fans cry out for a change, is Utd recently not signing "big names".

    We lost the PL crown to bad luck, bad play, shit loads of injuries and a bad (read: corrupt) ref. Would we be this angered by the situation if
    Robben's shot hit the outside of the post and both controversial chelsea goals last seasons were disallowed? Or if 90% our defense was made
    of cold hard metal and not porcelain? I think not.

    I prefer to use my energy to support the players and help their game and let the financial side of things sort them self out. The fact is that the value of United by far exceeds the amount of debt, even if you include the Shopping Mall Business debt. And if things were as bad as they seem Glazers would sell in a heartbeat and still make money of it. They will not willingly go bankrupt...
     
  32. H Stand

    H Stand Active Member

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    In the words of dear old David Gill, "debt is the road to ruin" and boy are we a long way down that road !!

    If we have spent even a quater of the 80 million we got for Ronaldo we would probably have won the Premiership last year
     
  33. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    The problem here is there's 2 sides to the story, we've only got 1. But this is worrying. Should be interesting to hear what the Glazers and Gill have to say about this. Unfortunately i'm going to miss the programme tonight as i'm off to the cinema.

    Luckily, there's a BBC iPlayer :D
     
  34. g@mb!t

    [email protected]!t Well-Known Member

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    we also lacked the goals in the important games tbh, the Blackburn game springs to mind...we did good even when we were missing defenders tbh!
     
  35. JSNFRMN

    JSNFRMN Moderator

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    Re: Manchester United owner's debts hit £1.1bn

    BBC1 8:30-9:00. I won tickets to see a documentary on my dad's favourite band, they're called Rush. It's his very late birthday present.
     
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