'A quagmire of mediocrity'

RichH2016

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It's really that bad. Nothing about this team or its current position and state suggests there's any kind of light at the end of the tunnel. It's dire from top to bottom.
 

jsp

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I think it sums it up from top to bottom

Owners
Chief Exec
Board Members
Manager
Coaches
Players

None of these people have proven pedigree that allows you to put faith that things will improve on the pitch they have no track record they can point to.

There's very little to hang your hat on.

Injuries are a problem but it's not like we've got peak Rooney or RVN coming back to solve our goal scoring woes it's Martial who's hit and miss himself.
 

RichH2016

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Injuries are a problem but it's not like we've got peak Rooney or RVN coming back to solve our goal scoring woes it's Martial who's hit and miss himself.
Was just reading about our injuries and how that's apparently a reason for our struggles. What a load of nonsense.

So we are missing AWB and ok fair enough that's a loss because he's started really well. But then I read Lindelof, Shaw, Pogba, Martial, Lingard... I mean Axel played well the other day and actually I'm not sold on Lindelof. I'm also not sold on Shaw and I'm not sure what it is he does that's very good.

Pogba is a loss IF he fancies it but all too often he doesn't. Martial I mean I've given up with him. He's the most inconsistent but mostly poor player I think I've ever seen.
 

Mr C

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so what are you saying? you've basically said all the players are rubbish, yet it's Ole's fault?

About the only 3 players you aren't blaming, are the 3 he's brought in.
 

RichH2016

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so what are you saying? you've basically said all the players are rubbish, yet it's Ole's fault?

About the only 3 players you aren't blaming, are the 3 he's brought in.
I'm saying it's not all his fault and I've stated that time and time again. He's not the biggest issue and we all know that. But I also haven't seen anything to suggest he's the man to rebuild this club.
 

Mr C

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i'm not sure we could know that, when the team is so poor. We can only judge him once he has some half decent players. Which is why I think we should at least see what happens when the injured players are back.

However, I don't thnk he'll get the time. He'll be gone within weeks and the merry go round will start again, this time next year we'll be asking for the managers head.
 

jsp

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i'm not sure we could know that, when the team is so poor. We can only judge him once he has some half decent players. Which is why I think we should at least see what happens when the injured players are back.

However, I don't thnk he'll get the time. He'll be gone within weeks and the merry go round will start again, this time next year we'll be asking for the managers head.
In an ideal world you’d say give him time but you have to ask why did we only get 3 players this summer? Was Ole happy to take that huge gamble, did he fail to secure his targets or did the club cap his spending? We will never know the answer to that but Ole has said he was happy with all the deals now he’s saying he wanted a striker.

When the squad is weak you need a top manager when the squad is strong you don’t always need a top manager when you have neither you have a problem.

Changing manager is always easier than changing players.

The leaks in the press today suggest Utd are testing the waters to see where opinion lays on the idea of sacking Ole one thing Ole has done is point the gun fully in the direction of the board when it comes to the club not performing on the pitch. They’ve run out of excuses and fall guys.
 

RichH2016

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i'm not sure we could know that, when the team is so poor. We can only judge him once he has some half decent players. Which is why I think we should at least see what happens when the injured players are
Tell me where the improvement in style is? There isn't any. In fact the football is worse than under Jose and LVG and results are much worse. There's no sign of any kind of style.
 

Ben Townsend

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Tell me where the improvement in style is? There isn't any. In fact the football is worse than under Jose and LVG and results are much worse. There's no sign of any kind of style.
And there isnt a plan b that is obvious to me when plan a isnt working, Im not sure he makes the right subs nor does he choose the right time in the game to make them.
I dont think any manager in world football could get much out of this bunch of players in all honesty, but what did the board expect Ole to achieve in all honesty ?
The root problem is with the powers of the club and we are in for a long time with nothing but negativity, we are being compared to when liverpool had to rebuild, but I fear that we are in a worse position than they were sadly.
dont change the manager until we have a director of football to take on the footballing decisions of our club as nothing will improve until then.
 

RichH2016

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And there isnt a plan b that is obvious to me when plan a isnt working, Im not sure he makes the right subs nor does he choose the right time in the game to make them.
I dont think any manager in world football could get much out of this bunch of players in all honesty, but what did the board expect Ole to achieve in all honesty ?
The root problem is with the powers of the club and we are in for a long time with nothing but negativity, we are being compared to when liverpool had to rebuild, but I fear that we are in a worse position than they were sadly.
dont change the manager until we have a director of football to take on the footballing decisions of our club as nothing will improve until then.
Problem is his plan A isn't good and isn't going to work against most teams we face. His plan A is a good smart plan B for some games.
 

jsp

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That's it really we had 2-3 months of what looked like a new style of play more front foot and aggressive but we've quickly reverted back to Mourinho ball largely because it's Mourinho players and what we no longer have is the Fellaini off the bench plan B which under Mourinho dug us out of quite a few holes. You see almost no benefit of any training we don't look much better defensively in terms of shape (just have better players) and going forward we are as bad as ever so you have to question what these players are being asked to do.

Some times you need to strip everything back and take short term pain for long term gain and the club have been pretty clear on that and I think when the window shut everyone knew Lukaku and Darmian would go as would one of the defender we assumed Rojo and the squad could cope with that but letting Sanchez go with no replacement was a step to far. It needed to be done but at that point surely Utd had to go and take someone like Llorente who was available on a free just give him a 2 year deal to cover us in case Martial got injured.

It's coming out in the press that behind the scenes it's not been a happy dressing room for a while Ole had trouble with Lukaku & Sanchez who had to go but not replacing them becomes almost negligent especially when you already had an under performing front line.

My worry is if we keep chucking these kids into the wrong environment we will cause more harm than good and there are some very talented kids at Utd but they are kids who probably should all be out on loan this season playing every week in a less challenging league. The only one I think looks first team ready is Greenwood he's one of the rare good enough at 17 players that come through maybe once every 10 years.

At the moment only one thing can/will change and that's the manager and the coaches I don't think the club need to deviate to far from the Ole plan but I think they do need to find a better manager who can get more out of these players and make sure they get enough points on the board this season to avoid embarrassment.

Say we end up 10th do you really think players like Sancho are going to be interested in coming here?
 

Ben Townsend

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That's it really we had 2-3 months of what looked like a new style of play more front foot and aggressive but we've quickly reverted back to Mourinho ball largely because it's Mourinho players and what we no longer have is the Fellaini off the bench plan B which under Mourinho dug us out of quite a few holes. You see almost no benefit of any training we don't look much better defensively in terms of shape (just have better players) and going forward we are as bad as ever so you have to question what these players are being asked to do.

Some times you need to strip everything back and take short term pain for long term gain and the club have been pretty clear on that and I think when the window shut everyone knew Lukaku and Darmian would go as would one of the defender we assumed Rojo and the squad could cope with that but letting Sanchez go with no replacement was a step to far. It needed to be done but at that point surely Utd had to go and take someone like Llorente who was available on a free just give him a 2 year deal to cover us in case Martial got injured.

It's coming out in the press that behind the scenes it's not been a happy dressing room for a while Ole had trouble with Lukaku & Sanchez who had to go but not replacing them becomes almost negligent especially when you already had an under performing front line.

My worry is if we keep chucking these kids into the wrong environment we will cause more harm than good and there are some very talented kids at Utd but they are kids who probably should all be out on loan this season playing every week in a less challenging league. The only one I think looks first team ready is Greenwood he's one of the rare good enough at 17 players that come through maybe once every 10 years.

At the moment only one thing can/will change and that's the manager and the coaches I don't think the club need to deviate to far from the Ole plan but I think they do need to find a better manager who can get more out of these players and make sure they get enough points on the board this season to avoid embarrassment.

Say we end up 10th do you really think players like Sancho are going to be interested in coming here?
Being honest do you think Sancho would be tempted if we finished 5th ? Liverpool will be all over him I reckon - whether he goes is a different matter.
 

jsp

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Being honest do you think Sancho would be tempted if we finished 5th ? Liverpool will be all over him I reckon - whether he goes is a different matter.
I just chucked his name out as an example to be honest unless we get in the CL I don't think he's coming here like you say better clubs will be sniffing around him shortly so Utd are probably a few steps down the list on likely destinations for him if/when he decides to come back to England but money does talk.

If Utd can show that they're on the way back to the top then there's a huge opportunity for him as being the Man Utd number 7 makes you one of the most famous players on the planet straight away it opens so many doors for you because of the fan base which is why I think we'll always attract players.
 

TheChosenJuan

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I think it sums it up from top to bottom

Owners
Chief Exec
Board Members
Manager
Coaches
Players

None of these people have proven pedigree that allows you to put faith that things will improve on the pitch they have no track record they can point to.

There's very little to hang your hat on.

Injuries are a problem but it's not like we've got peak Rooney or RVN coming back to solve our goal scoring woes it's Martial who's hit and miss himself.
I'll summarise it all from top down:
Manchester United are owned by leeches
Managed by stooges
Operated by puppets
Propped up by muppets (the "top reds" in particular)
 

jsp

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I'll summarise it all from top down:
Manchester United are owned by leeches
Managed by stooges
Operated by puppets
Propped up by muppets (the "top reds" in particular)
By Top Reds I assume you are referring to people who go to a lot of the games (by the way I'm not one of them).

I think that's harsh people who go every week probably have done long before the Glazers arrived and it's not something they should just give up we've had 2 cracks at getting rid of the owners one before they arrived and 1 back in 2011 but we as fans are basically powerless to stop them and they know that.

The only thing I'd say as fans that we could be better at doing is boycotting sponsorship partners most obvious way of doing this is to stop buying any official Utd merchandise this would really get the word out to sponsors that Utd is a toxic brand to be associated with but that's almost impossible to do.
 

RichH2016

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The only thing I'd say as fans that we could be better at doing is boycotting sponsorship partners most obvious way of doing this is to stop buying any official Utd merchandise this would really get the word out to sponsors that Utd is a toxic brand to be associated with but that's almost impossible to do.
Stop buying merchandise and stop going to games. Drastic but I think it's come to that now. They've got to go and take their little lap dog with them.
 

Mr C

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the worry with that is, it's the merch/sponsors that is propping the club up as we aren't winning anything. Take that and then the club is in the poop

we basically need someone wedged to make an offer they can't refuse.
 

jsp

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Stop buying merchandise and stop going to games. Drastic but I think it's come to that now. They've got to go and take their little lap dog with them.
I’ll never say to someone don’t go to the game I do think protests at games should become more organised and vocal staged walk outs etc but you should never tell someone not to go it’s up to them and they shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for going.

We know they have to go it’s always been that way but if they go who do we get who can actually afford to buy the club? It’s like 0.1% of the people in the world who can afford it.

My fundamental issue with them currently is why aren’t they doing something about the money being spent badly surely as a business owner you have to be responsible and look at a pattern of bad investments and say this has to stop.
 

Mr C

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Scholes made a good point this morning.

The problems started with Moyes, signing Fellaini and Mata. These, albeit decent players, were not united players and just set in motion years of poor transfer deals. He highlighted how much they missed Gill in this period, which of course we all know.

He think Ole needs 5 decent transfer windows.
 

jsp

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Appointing Moyes was the start of the downfall lets be honest we replaced arguably the greatest manager of all time with a guy who delivered par results for Everton. That wasn't necessarily the fault of the club we don't know how much time they had to find the replacement if you believe Fergie's side of things they knew for 12 months although the suggestion that this news wouldn't have leaked is laughable. The suggestion was that Fergie had spoken to Guardiola, Mourinho etc and the a few of the other big names but they'd all committed to other clubs for the next season so the pool of options was limited. I think a bigger name would have held that squad together better getting those boys to listen to anyone other than Fergie was probably impossible as they were all fiercely loyal to him but a big high profile name might have stood a chance of getting their attention. You could see from day one they didn't respect Moyes.

Moyes or any other manager should never have been given autonomy post Fergie when he went that was the time to change the structure and Fergie's last act should have been to prepare that summer for the next guy. The club from memory had a deal lined up for Thiago but Utd dithered and Bayern nipped in we wasted time on players like Bale & Fabregas who had no interest in coming. We'd already p*ssed off Everton by taking Moyes then tried to sign both Fellaini and Baines from them arguably their best players at the time & that mental last ditch attempt for Herrera which showed our lack of knowledge of how buy outs work. There was also the Rooney problem Fergie clearly had been preparing to move him on but Moyes/Woodward were desperate to keep hold of him as they hadn't secured a suitable big name replacement. It really was a mad summer that should never have been allowed to be repeated.

Fellaini & Mata were poor signings Fellaini because he was never anywhere near good enough to play central midfield for Utd has was not on par with Carrick or Scholes who were both entering twilight years and Mata just didn't have a spot.

That was the first warning sign and that should have been the point where the entire club said this has to change and structure should have been put in place for a future with or without Moyes but they didn't so when LVG arrived he approved two signings Moyes had worked on Shaw & Herrera but the club didn't have a plan so he quickly had to find players Romero, Rojo, Blind, Di Maria and Falcao all came in.

There was some mad thing with Rojo that has come out where after the club signed him a member of staff googled him and found out he had pending criminal charges in Argentina and Portugal and was facing potential jail time. The people who signed off the deal had no idea about this and were shocked to find out.

I do agree on the time frame but I don't think you can say Ole needs 5 decent windows it's the club that needs 5 decent windows he needs to overhaul the entire squad he inherited of the 25 senior players he took over probably 5 are good enough to be in a top squad. Some of these roles will be filled with academy graduates but lets say potentially 15 players need to be replaced.
 

TheChosenJuan

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Scholes made a good point this morning.

The problems started with Moyes, signing Fellaini and Mata. These, albeit decent players, were not united players and just set in motion years of poor transfer deals. He highlighted how much they missed Gill in this period, which of course we all know.

He think Ole needs 5 decent transfer windows.
If Fellaini ain't a United player, Ole ain't a United Manager
 

IDFD

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If Fellaini ain't a United player, Ole ain't a United Manager
He’s done his hard work. He’s managed the Youth teams and the reserve teams here.

It’s a massively depleted squad that will take time to sort out. It’s 9 games in to a long term plan. To not have a short term thinking manager is a good thing.
 

TheChosenJuan

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He’s done his hard work. He’s managed the Youth teams and the reserve teams here.

It’s a massively depleted squad that will take time to sort out. It’s 9 games in to a long term plan. To not have a short term thinking manager is a good thing.
He relegated Cardiff, is tactically inept and has almost 0 man management skills. His record is appalling and no Premier League side would appoint him.
If you say Lampard, Zidane, Luis Enrique, Guardiola etc, there is a massive difference- they were all leaders for their club during its heyday. They inspired their sides to glory- be it Zidane in the Champions League Final and 2 different World Cups. Pep was captain of Cruyff's dream team as a player, Luis Enrique was also Barcelona captain once upon a time. Lampard is Chelsea's greatest ever goalscorer and was captain on that night in Munich.
The closest comparison to Ole in terms of club legends who were appointed is Filippo Inzaghi, but even he is closer to a T2 Club Legend than he is to Ole(Tier3 for me- Giggs, Sir Bobby Charlton, Best, Law and Scholes are t1. Beckham, Edwin, Schmeichel, Keane, Neville, Irwin, Rio, Vidic, Evra are t2, Ole is t3.)
Ole has had more time than Moyes, yet the latter had a better winning record with a weaker squad. There are no more excuses, only nostalgia.
 

TheChosenJuan

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Scholes made a good point this morning.

The problems started with Moyes, signing Fellaini and Mata. These, albeit decent players, were not united players and just set in motion years of poor transfer deals. He highlighted how much they missed Gill in this period, which of course we all know.

He think Ole needs 5 decent transfer windows.
No, they started in 2009 when Ronaldo was sold and Tevez allowed to leave without either being replaced. We may have won 2 of the next 4 titles (losing the other 2 on GD + 1 point respectively) in addition to a League Cup and reached a Champions League Final, but the 2011 Final was a mercy killing compared to 2009 despite losing both games by the same margin.
2009 was one of those that if you played it 10 times, we win at least 4. 2011, we barely win 3 times out of 100.
 

jsp

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He’s done his hard work. He’s managed the Youth teams and the reserve teams here.

It’s a massively depleted squad that will take time to sort out. It’s 9 games in to a long term plan. To not have a short term thinking manager is a good thing.
Disagree a manager has to have both short and long term plans and in football long term plans won’t happen if short term results aren’t good enough.

For me the long term plan for the club is correct 2-3 seasons to totally overhaul the squad but they’ve messed up year 1 by doing to many outs and not enough ins which has left them very weak and not able to compete for top 4 based on the first 1/4 of the season. Injuries hit hard which hasn’t helped lost our key midfielder and striker the tables may turn in our favour as the season goes there and we’ll catch up.

Every manager we’ve had has had long term plans Mourinho knew he needed a few years to set things up as did LVG and so did Moyes but results eventually caught up to them and because neither was building a traditional Man Utd side both went. Mourinho was massively let down by the club he’d got us to second then the board bottled the plan and it set us back years as now we dismantle everything he’d built just like he’d dismantled everything LVG did, Moyes etc.

That is what can’t be allowed to happen it’s like a new foreman on a construction project saying rip down everything the last guy did and start again, he leaves new guy does the same and so on and so on so nothing ever gets built. That’s why you have project managers who stop these decisions from being made they have the view of the whole thing and control it from start to finish.

We all think Ole wants to build a fast, high energy, skilful, aggressive Utd side like the one he played in well we need to see signs of it soon.
 

IDFD

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Our injuries are caused by the bad form and a tactically devoid nonce just running them into the ground.
I’m sorry but behaviour like this has to stop. He’s a club legend not a fricking nonce. I’ll give you a pass on English not being your first language but words like that shouldn’t be thrown around and personal insults towards the manager need to stop if you’re a fan of the club.
 

IDFD

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I think we all knew we were in for short term pain and there was no immediate plan when we let Lukaku and Sanchez go without bringing anyone in because the window had shut. That was clear evidence the club had decided we are in complete rebuild mode.
 

jsp

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I’m sorry but behaviour like this has to stop. He’s a club legend not a fricking nonce. I’ll give you a pass on English not being your first language but words like that shouldn’t be thrown around and personal insults towards the manager need to stop if you’re a fan of the club.
@TheChosenJuan

Can't support IDFD more on this you either don't know what that word means or you're so immature that you're prepared to just chuck it around it's a ridiculous thing to say about him if you want to chuck that word around go and do it on twitter.

From everything you read about Ole he sounds like an absolutely top person who contributed a lot to this club as a player and fought 2 years on the side lines with horrible knee injuries just to get one more chance to pull on the shirt the club could do with more players like him.

As for the injuries they are a problem but they've been a problem for every manager my personal opinion is these players are just injury prone players no matter what method of training you use on them they break down far to many player in this squad disappear for 2-3 weeks with muscle injuries which are simply the result of the body not being able to handle the workload.

I don't care how much ability players like this have if you can't get them out on the pitch on a regular basis get them out the door you need guys you can rely on physically.
 

IDFD

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If you say Lampard, Zidane, Luis Enrique, Guardiola etc, there is a massive difference- they were all leaders for their club during its heyday. They inspired their sides to glory- be it Zidane in the Champions League Final and 2 different World Cups. Pep was captain of Cruyff's dream team as a player, Luis Enrique was also Barcelona captain once upon a time. Lampard is Chelsea's greatest ever goalscorer and was captain on that night in Munich.
The closest comparison to Ole in terms of club legends who were appointed is Filippo Inzaghi, but even he is closer to a T2 Club Legend than he is to Ole(Tier3 for me- Giggs, Sir Bobby Charlton, Best, Law and Scholes are t1. Beckham, Edwin, Schmeichel, Keane, Neville, Irwin, Rio, Vidic, Evra are t2, Ole is t3.)
Ole has had more time than Moyes, yet the latter had a better winning record with a weaker squad. There are no more excuses, only nostalgia.
Ole is above Beckham, VDS, Schmeichal, Irwin, Rio and Vidic. I’m also surprised you include Schmeichal in the list. He left us out the blue and then went on to play for City most United fans aren’t a massive fan of his at this point. As a side note Neville is on par with Scholes and Giggs if not above them. He lives and bleeds Manchester United.

Ole has had 29 games. Moyes had 35.

Moyes inherited a title winning side that won the league by over 10 points Ole inherited a side 13 points off of 4th. And as for literal time if not games managed it won’t be until the start of December that Ole has had as long as Moyes. So again much like Ole attacking the fans and backing the Glazers as you stated this is factually incorrect.
 

Mr C

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I'm sorry, Ole a T3 legend wtf? scored a CL winner, refused to be sold to Spurs, scored agaisnt Liverpool. And was happy being a team player.

I'd find it harder to find more of a legend, everything you want in a player. And he deserves more respect. Comments like that make me think you aren't actually a united fan. Absolutely no way would any fan I know call Ole a T3 legend. Although no one I know would tier it to be honest.

Hopefully yesterdays match will shut down the tactfully inept slant. Klopp had to change his formation 3 times, maybe he's inept? can only play one way, and when someone counteracts it he throws his dolly out the pram when he should be looking for a plan B.
 

jsp

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Since when do we have tiers of legends?

I mean the club has been blessed with so many great players who've made massive contributions to multiple titles it's impossible to recognise them all although the clubs policy of if you get a knighthood you get a stand is probably a pretty good one the bar has to be set high.
 

IDFD

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Since when do we have tiers of legends?

I mean the club has been blessed with so many great players who've made massive contributions to multiple titles it's impossible to recognise them all although the clubs policy of if you get a knighthood you get a stand is probably a pretty good one the bar has to be set high.
And a road named after you!

I imagine there’ll eventually be a class of ‘92 feature somewhere around Old Trafford.

I don’t mind if people want to have different levels in their minds. I just think Ole was very quiet not outspoken but what he done on And off the pitch solidified his status as a club great. He’s got over 100 goals for the club. He’s hit a last minute winner in what is probably the greatest and most recognised moment in the clubs history. He was like a hero that you could throw on and you’d know he’d get it done. He’s second in the premier league for goals as a sub. 5 years in a row he got in to double figures despite not being the starting striker. He never moaned and just wanted to fight for his place.
 

jsp

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Yeah I think there will probably be another "holy trinity" style statue to Giggs, Scholes & Neville in a few years time maybe something at the training ground rather than around Old Trafford but it's a tricky one because Rooney is our record goal scorer but he's never going to get a statue. Ronaldo probably the most talented player ever to pull on the shirt only the second Utd player to be named Ballon D'Or obviously isn't getting a statue.

Ole for me fits into the group of guys like Rio, Vidic & Evra players made big contributions to a sustained period of success he obviously has that legendary moment of scoring that goal in 99 but I don't think a massive goal makes you a legend I mean that season had so many memorable moments Ole's was just the icing on the cake. Yorke and Cole at the Nou Camp, Keane in Turin, Giggs at Villa Park. You could argue Sheringham was the true hero in 99 came off the bench scored 1 and setup the other or Beckham who that year should have been made Ballon D'Or he was on another level.
 

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